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General discussion

Maybe I will Switch Neeed old Mac to try

Nov 2, 2006 2:21AM PST

I really started liking Macs since the Intels came out. Now I really think that I should switch. So I decided to get a really really cheap Mac for myself to learn it, check it out and stuff like that without loosing my primary PC.
I would highly prefer a notebook. A small light one. Like the current MacBook but smaller. It should be easy to pick with one hand and it should have OSX 10.4 preferably with iLife also. Remember plz that it should be really really cheap almost nothing. OK not nothing but something fairly good. Not a workhorse.

Discussion is locked

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Here you go
Nov 2, 2006 3:54AM PST

13" MacBook (white) $1099

or for an even cheaper option but not a laptop

Mac Mini $699. Use your existing USB keyboard and Mouse

Check out the Apple Store for them.

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Also Saw
Nov 2, 2006 4:17AM PST

Take a look at the advertisers on CNET, on the bottom of screen and also header of forum, saw some good deals from local repair shops and resellers.

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Dude Thanks but I know these
Nov 2, 2006 3:08PM PST

Actually I know these but what I am looking for is a used laptop so they are very cheap but perform OK. I think for that I will have to go for PowerPC which I really dont mind. So do you know any model?
Thanks

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This forum is not the place to look
Nov 2, 2006 8:53PM PST

for used computers. Unlike Winboxes, the Mac holds it's price even when used. So for something "really, really cheap" you will probably not be running OS X which will make the whole point of buying a Mac, pointless.

You might want to define cheap for us.

You would be better off looking through the selection on eBay.

Your first post mentions that you quite like the Mac since the Intel processor was installed. That puts you out of the "cheap" range instantly.

To run OS X comfortably, you will need to be looking for a laptop with a G4 processor. A G4 with 600Mhz, and up, will run the latest Mac OS. Obviously the faster the processor, the better it will run.

Good luck on eBay

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Suggestions
Nov 2, 2006 10:46PM PST

Ok actually what I am trying to ask you guys is to recommend a model name. I want PowerPC as Intel would be better off buying brand new. It should be under $500. Firewire port there. Mac OSX preferably 10.4. I would like a laptop but dont mind a desktop. If a PPC Mac Mini is recommended then I will use my own monitor etc.
Thanks

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Suggestions
Nov 3, 2006 2:21AM PST

Manufacturer: Apple
Model Name: PowerBook
Processor: G4 (600Mhz or above)
OS: Whatever comes on the machine you buy. Then buy 10.4 if necessary.
Firewire, USB and Ethernet are all standard.
Price: Whatever you are willing to pay for it.
OR
Manufacturer: Apple
Model Name: iMac
Processor: G4 > 800Mhz or G5
OS: Whatever comes on the machine you buy. then buy OS 10.4 if necessary.
Firewire, USB and Ethernet are all standard
Price: What ever you are will to pay for it.

You said you wanted a laptop. Now you have moved the goalposts and wouldn't mind a Desktop.

Would you like me to search on eBay for a suitable machine for you?

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Sure
Nov 3, 2006 3:05AM PST

I would love it if you could do that. But problem is that I live in the United Arab Emirates. So shipping could become a problem.
Just tell me the prices of the Macs you find so that I can get an idea of how much I should pay for any given machine that I might buy locally.
If they can ship to Canada then theres no problem because my cousins live there and when we meet up they could get the Mac for me.

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How about this
Nov 3, 2006 4:17AM PST

You send your cousins in Canada a link to this forum.
Tell them that you want them to search for an Apple computer for you.
Tell them exactly what it is you want.

On the subject of editing HD video, ALL the machines you listed in your question are capable of editing HD video. iMovieHD is part of iLife 06 which will run on those machines, and run well
Processor speed, RAM and HD space are all important factors in video editing.

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Check this one out
Nov 3, 2006 8:42AM PST
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You can buy them if you want to,
Nov 7, 2006 2:10AM PST

but they are bundled with new Macs (and included on the System discs with the computers when you buy the computer) so why would you want to pay for them again?

http://www.apple.com/ilife/

http://www.apple.com/iwork/

You *might* need to pay for iWork, but not very much for the robustness it provides. It it is THAT big of a deal, download NeoOffice.

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Why would you be losing your primary
Nov 3, 2006 1:45AM PST

PC because you are buying a Mac? I don't understand. In my opinion, getting an "old cheap PPC Mac" that was someone else's old machine so you can get to know the Macintosh hardware and operating system and bundled software is - to me - like buying a five year old GM automobile to try and learn what Cadillac (also made by GM) is like now. The experience will be quite different.

Don't get me wrong, I have a G4 tower in the house that was bought years ago and runs the current OS and an older version of the iLife suite of applications (iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, etc), but I don't think I would go looking for one NOW to try to understand how it would stack up against a current MacPro tower or a MacBook or MacBook Pro or flat panel iMac... so if you do end up with an older machine, you can expect more good and useful life out of it for a while...

That said, if you REALLY want to do what you have indicated, then the others make some very good recommendations. Personally (given your description), I would get a new MacMini and re-use your current monitor. You may need to get a USB keyboard and mouse, but it certainly is affordable and is current and would be NEW, under warranty, with the current version of everything.

Perhaps there is a Mac User group nearby?

http://www.apple.com/usergroups/

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Dont Understand
Nov 3, 2006 3:18AM PST

So are you telling me that generally Macs have longer 'lives'? And that even if I get an old Mac lets say G4 less than 1 Ghz, it will still have a lot of potential?

Another question is that which of these current Macs can edit HD video:
Mac Mini
iMac
Macbook
Macbook Pro

Please tell me how you expect their performance in doing so would be. All these are the latest ones.

In video editting which is the key component for better performance? Processor, Graphic Card or RAM?

Thank YOu

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Yes, in my opinion, the operating life
Nov 3, 2006 7:41AM PST

of an Apple Macintosh is longer than other PCs. Typically, a "PC" has a useful life of about 3-4 years. Macintoshes can last 4-6 years or more (at least, that is my experience in the corporate world and at home, but it depends on what your requirements are).

All of the machines you list, if they were built in the last couple of years (so either high-end G4, G5 or Intel-based) can edit High Definition video.

The "key component to video editing" will depend on your requirements, but it should be understood that there is no one "key" - there are many pieces that make up the entire system - and all have their job to do.

For example, if getting the information INTO or OUT of the machine is your priority, then CPU is key (presuming FireWire is used for the actual transfer). If getting as much of the editing job into the machine is a priority, then a large hard drive is key. The video processing in the machines you list are up to the task of editing HD video, so that is a non-issue. Since you have indicated you are no longer on the high-definition video track, all of the current machines you listed will handle standard definition video editing without breathing very hard.

If you were to get a higher-end G4 to edit standard def video, you will be fine... but what you will find is burning the DVD (rendering the video) will take much more time than if you use a current machine with a much faster processor.

I still have the G4 tower (867 MHz, I think - now about 5 years old) that I used to use to edit Standard Def video from an Canon Elura 60 (and an old analog RCA full format VHS camcorder via analog-digital bridge). It is a great machine. I can still edit standard def video on it if I want. It will import standard def video in real time. But when it comes time to burn the single layer DVD (about 105 minutes worth of video + DVD menuing with motion), I used to start that rendering burning job just before going to sleep at night. Most times, the DVD would be ready when I woke up in the morning. I have every confidence that this G4 tower could handle hidef video too - if I am patient enough - but there is no need for me to do that.

I now use a 2 GHz flat panel G5 iMac. It behaves great when importing standard def video (real time, just like the G4 tower). It is a little over a year old. For High Definition video, when importing, it caches the video from the camera and processes it at about 1/2 normal speed - so it does not import High Definition video in real time. If I have a full miniDV tape (1 hour) to import, I just start the import and walk away - a couple of hours later, it is done importing and the computer ready for me to start editing. Once in the machine, HD video editing is real time and works great. Now, on DVD burning - it takes a couple of hours to render, but certainly not over-night (and more video = more render time). Plus, the newer machines have double-layer DVD burners - whereas the older machines as single-layer only.

There is some time delay when applying and rendering transitions, special effects, titles and credits - and obviously, the machine with the faser CPU will render thes activities faster. But typically, 1/2 second cross-fades or a 5 second title or 20 seconds of credits take only seconds or a minute or so depending on what needs to render. Increasing what needs to render (i.e., 15 second cross-fade or 20 second title or 5 minutes of credits will increase the rendering time to add that effect to the video - but does not impact export or burn to DVD time - that I can tell.)

My son recently got a flat panel Intel iMac. He's at college and I will be visiting him this weekend. One thing I've told him I'd like to try is high def video importing - just to see how much difference there is. I'll let you know what happens.

In the meantime, if you don't have enough hard drive space to hold all the video you want to edit, it does not matter how much RAM you have, what speed the CPU is or what sort of graphics processing is in the machine... and suddenly, the hard drive storage space becomes "the key component"... (so an external FireWire drive of at least 250 gig - bigger is better, especially if HD video is edited - is highly recommended).

The faster CPUs will render the video faster when importing (which we know is not an issue with standard def video) and exporting (or burning to DVD - which we know is an issue). For importing standard def video, all will be about the same - real time - but rendering out the finished product will happen faster with the faster machine.

At that point, the "key component" is the person at the machine, and not the machine itself... but this is just my opinion.

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Should I switch?
Nov 3, 2006 3:08PM PST

I have a primary desktop:
Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz
768 DDR RAM
Seagate Barracuda Hard Drive 80GB Ultra ATA
Nvidia GeForce 5200 128 MB memory
48x CD writer combo DVD ROM

My dad has a notebook which I can use frequently:
Core Duo 2 Ghz
1 GB DDR2 RAM
100GB Hard Drive
Nvidia GeForce Go 7400
DVD Super multi Drive

So should I stick with this and edit my videos on these and manage and then buy a Mac when the time comes for me to scrap my desktop? Inthis way I will be able to get Leopard.
Or should I go buy a cheap Mac and if I really like it buy an Intel iMac.

I think that my desktop still 'works' alright and I bought it exactly 2 years ago.

Can I edit in HD on either of these PCs?

Oh please a major question.
Can I burn edited HD movies to DVD? With full HD quality? Even if it can just fit in a few minutes? Like if for example I shoot something and then edit the whoile event into an interesting 10 min film, can I burn it to DVD and watch on an HDTV? If I do have an HDTV, then will the movie play properly in HD quality from a normal DVD player or will I still need an HD player?

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HD
Nov 3, 2006 10:33PM PST

I don't think that any computer currently ships with a DVD burner that has HD capabilities.
HD-DVD and BlueRay are still fighting it out.
Whatever you record, correctly, onto a DVD will certainly play on an HDTV and will be close to HD.

It's interesting to note that you have access to two machines, which at first glance appear to be reasonable.
Then you want to by a CHEAP Mac and demand that it does the same as your primary desktop. That's hardly a fair test.


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You guys dont get it!
Nov 4, 2006 8:04PM PST

What I am trying to tell you is that I want to get a cheap Mac to find out how 'compatible' it is with my work. Now I cant make a really long list of programs that I use. And the no. of programs that I use increases randomly. Example I normally read comics on my computer so I use a program called CDisplay. I was afraid I wouldn't find an alternate for a Mac if I switched so I asked on the forums and luckily found one.
I am not trying to compare the performance of the computers. I know very well how a PC should perform at any given config.
In a way I AM trying to compare the performance of a Mac vs a PC but not by its hardware but rather its software. For example I have a Mac and a PC both with very similar configs. I want to see which performs better overall. Like its start up time, its applications loading time etc.

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Responses...
Nov 4, 2006 1:23AM PST

I agree with mrmacfixit - buying a "really cheap mac" (i.e., old, perhaps used, low-end) and comparing its capabilities to the machines you have is hardly a "fair" way to judge the Macintosh environment... Do you have to give up your primary machine? Why not use both? Or, in your case, apparently, all three?

When you burn HD video to generally available single layer and double layer DVD drives, it will be down sampled to standard definition. It will be REALLY high-quality standard definition, but still standard definition. That's why it has been said several times that when you want to watch HD video, be sure to render the edited video back out to your HD camera (miniDV tape) and use the camera connected to the HD TV as the playback device (using the component or HDMI connectors avaiblable on the HD camera and TV/monitor).

If you connect a standard def DVD player t oan HD TV, you will see what the DVD player can play - Standard Def video. You can't make a standard def DVD player do any better than that.

By the way, your primary desktop could use more RAM and would certainly need a larger (additional) hard drive (internal or FireWire - which probably means adding a FireWire card which you would need to connect your camcorder for video transfer, anyway). And you'll need a DVD burner - I suggest a double layer - and that could be internal or external.

Sony appears to have BluRay HD burner capabilities
http://shop1.outpost.com/search?search_type=adv&resultpage=0&sqxts=1&order_by=s00d&pType=&cat=0&query_string=+sony+blu+ray&minprice=&maxprice=&x=0&y=0

But I suggest staying away from the HD disc format wars until more products are available and the discs get much more affordable.

And if you decide to wait to buy anything because there is so much change and churn in the industry, you will wait forever - because there is always change and churn in the industry. You either want to jump in and get started or never get in...

I thought - in the camcorders forum - that you had given up in HD video camcorders...

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lol
Nov 4, 2006 8:26PM PST

I am not exactly out of HD. I was asking about its capabilities to edit in Hd because when I do get and HD camcorder, then I dont have to buy a new computer just because it cant edit in HD.

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I guess you missed a response or two
Nov 4, 2006 10:23PM PST

ALL Macs running iLife 06 are capable of editing in HD.
iLife 06 is included, for free, with the purchase of every new Mac.
Editing HD on a Mac is a fact of life.
It's not always the machine that counts, it's the software it is using.

You have access to the same internet as we do but you do not appear to be using it. Have you even been to the Apple store and read up on all the software available?

The way you keep moving things around makes it impossible for anyone to give you what you think is the right answer.
Currently you have no idea what it is that you want, so how is anyone else expected to know?

Go and buy a Mac Mini for $599 and play with it. You will be able to edit HD, when you get your camera, straight out of the box.
You could always install XP, using BootCamp, on it and not have to worry about anything, except viruses.

If you do not like it, sell it on eBay.

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u r right
Nov 5, 2006 8:25PM PST

I do miss a few posts by mistake and ask answered question again. Sorry to everyone who is annoyed.

When I went to Apple's website earlier it said that iLife edits HD + is included in every Mac and all. But my question is that will the cheap hardware (Mac mini) that I buy be able to do the job in terms of performance? Will it take ages just because of the hardware?If it takes ages I will feel like not doing it at all.

Secondly dude when I went to the buy now thing, it givs me an option ti get iLife 06 for $79. So is this just a backup? Or is it something more? Should I get it?

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Editing
Nov 5, 2006 8:57PM PST

The Mac Mini will, of course, do things more slowly than a machine with a Core Duo or a Core 2 Duo.
It will still do it though.

As you currently do not own a Mac, purchasing iLife 06 would be pointless. It only runs on OS X.

When, if, you finally decide to purchase a new Mac, iLife 06 (or maybe 07) will be in included in the installed software.


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no no u dont get it
Nov 6, 2006 12:47AM PST

what i a m saying is that when you go to apple.com then you chooe a mac and then u can press buy now then it gives u the options u can choose like ram processor etc.
so in the apple software section it gives u the option to include iLife 06 preinstalled and next to it is written add $79. but everyone tells me that ilife is bundled free!

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Yes, Yes, I do, he said trying to be patient.
Nov 6, 2006 2:12AM PST

because when I go to the Apple Store, click on a computer, then click on Select It, I go to the same place as you are describing.
However, the difference between us is that I know that the letters i W o r k do NOT spell iLife.

What you are looking at is the option to have iWork06, consisting of a Presentation application and a word processor, installed for $79.

Now, is there anything else I don't understand?

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Whats is the difference between ilife and iwork
Nov 6, 2006 7:43PM PST

Can u get ilife like in a box with a cd and all so you can install the latest version. i am asking this for when ilife 07 comes. dont you get a discount for upgrading?
thnx but i have not had enough sleep.
sorry

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Get some sleep and then
Nov 6, 2006 8:53PM PST

go to the Apple store and read the information there.
You will find all about iLife, how you can buy it and how much is costs.
If there is not mention of an upgrade price, then there probably isn't one
iLife, the latest version, is installed on ALL new Macs except MacPro
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Why not Mac Pro
Nov 7, 2006 12:24AM PST

Y is iLife not on Mac Pro?
And plz tell me what are the main differences between Mac OS X 10.4 server and the normal Os that people use. I would like to know differences in terms of performance and functionality etc.

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A server is a server,
Nov 7, 2006 2:12AM PST

Not an individual user machine.

There is no comparison to be made.

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Can a Mac Mini edit HD?
Nov 6, 2006 6:10AM PST

Yes it can.

As I have said a few times, getting the HD video IN to the machine may not be real time. My 2GHz G5 flatpanel caches the video then processes it into bits and bytes the computer can understand. The import of HD is NOT in realtime. It is not a big deal. Connect the camera, launch iMovie, press import, go eat lunch. I would expect the new Intel chips to be much better. I was not able to use my son's DuoCore Intel Flatpanel this weekend.

Once the video is in the machine, you edit. Everything is in real time. There is some time taken when adding credits, transitions, titles... but not a big deal. Please read the replies we give you.

The other "big delay" that I experience is burning the DVD. But, plan your time. Click burn, go to sleep at night. In the morning, your disc is done.

Importing, editing, and burning the final product to file or tape or DVD are not the issues.

YOUR patience and planning abilities are.

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Have you switched yet?
May 25, 2009 11:47AM PDT

I know you wrote this in 2006, but I was wondering if you bought your cheap tester mac, because I am interested in switching to mac myself