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General discussion

Man charged in wife's suicide using his gun

Nov 16, 2003 3:51AM PST
Man charged for wife's suicide using his gun
Prosecutors say firearm in dresser drawer too accessible to troubled spouse


A resident of Norwalk, Conn., has been charged with second-degree manslaughter after his wife committed suicide using his .32-caliber handgun.

... According to the arrest warrant, 32-year-old Joan Bartush shot herself in October 2001 with one of her husband's licensed handguns.

... According to the Times, he is charged with contributing to his wife's suicide by leaving the gun ? which was in a dresser drawer ? too accessible to his wife two days after she arrived home from Silver Hill, a New Canaan psychiatric hospital. Police claim he had assured hospital personnel that his wife wouldn't have access to the gun.


Kinda sticky and scant on details. On the one hand if my spouse were suicidal I would probably want to do my best to remove "temptations". OTOH, I put temptations in quotes because if the availability of a gun is enough to send someone over the edge to suicide I don't think they are stable to begin with. Seems to me that someone who wishes to end their life may choose a more expedient method, but eventually will find whatever does the job. While perhaps some blame can be pointed at this man, I personally don't agree with this man being charged criminally for her actions in his apparent absence.

Evie Happy

Discussion is locked

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Hmmm......if shoe on other foot....
Nov 16, 2003 4:00AM PST

Husband came home from mental hospital. Perhaps wife needs larger than .32cal under her bed (out of drawer) for protection. Wink

JR (wantabee defense council)Wink

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Re:Man charged in wife's suicide using his gun
Nov 16, 2003 4:30AM PST

Well the damning point as far as I see it is the claim "Police claim he had assured hospital personnel that his wife wouldn't have access to the gun.".

Given that is true, I could certainly see an accessory charge perhaps, or some type of willfully and neglect contribution to death, etc. I guess that is about where second degree manslaughter would fit? I'm not sure of the legal definition of such.

First time I read it, I was reading second degree murder and thought that was a reach, but second degree manslaughter might fit, depending on the legal definitions and possible sentences.

roger

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Sorry, but I have to agree
Nov 16, 2003 4:54AM PST

The man apparently said he would secure the weapon. He certainly should have done so. He was irresponsible.

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Guilty!!
Nov 16, 2003 5:06AM PST

In my country, licensed handgun owners must have the firearms secured in an approved safe, which is bolted in place. The ammunition and magazines must be stored separately and also secured.

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Re:Guilty!!
Nov 16, 2003 5:16AM PST

Hi Seafox,

This is in my state where no such laws exist. If he indeed assured hospital staff that she would not have access to guns (as stated in the article but as it is early, it is not uncommon for facts to be misreported) then he is possibly liable for negligence of some sort. I'm not a lawyer and not sure what exactly a 2nd degree manslaughter charge entails, but it seems to me he should have to have an active part in her death. Ours has been a crazy state lately. Just a few weeks ago another high profile case involved a single mom charged in her son's suicide with much of the evidence revolving around the kid being teased for personal hygeine and having a messy home.

Personally, I dunno what this guy was thinking. But in this country, most folks who own such a gun do so for personal protection. It wouldn't do much good to have it locked up such as you describe.

Evie Happy

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Re:Re:Guilty!!
Nov 16, 2003 9:28AM PST

Yes Evie, I take your point re protection, however, one needs to obtain a pistol license here before purchasing, and "self protection" is not a legitimate reason, even though one is a business owner handling large sums of money.
All firearms owners need to be members of accredited clubs, and must satisfy attendance requirements, the records being monitored by police. If you are genuinely participating in range competition, or controlling feral game for a farmer friend perhaps, this is not too much of a humbug.

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and there's one of the rubs
Nov 16, 2003 10:23AM PST

It seems to me that protecting your own life is one of those basic, inalienable human rights. If government can't guarantee your protection, then it has no right to try to ban or regulate the means of self protection. The Rodney King Los Angelos riots proved that the government cannot guarantee protection (the police withdrew from the riot area and several people were killed). Therefore, the right of self defense must remain intact. However, by using force and intimidation, the government may try to take away that right anyway.

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Most deaths from handguns...
Nov 16, 2003 1:18PM PST

in a home are members of the family, people known to the family or suicides/accidents. Killing strangers (self defense) is way down on the list so rules were put in place to ensure that access to guns was not easy. Nobody lost their right to own guns, they just had to provide safe storage so children did not have easy access to them. Rights always have some limit(s) and I see safe storage as a reasonable limit.

I can't remember - how many of those people killed in the riots were in vehicles and how many were in buildings? The ones that I remember were the people in the vehicles. Safe storage of weapons in their dwelling would not be a factor in their deaths.

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Re:Most deaths from handguns...
Nov 17, 2003 12:42AM PST

Keith, that is incorrect information and based on the "study" in Washington that HCI erroneously used to claim "405 more likely..." despite the "study's authors specifically stating that due to their methodology IGNORING any time a firearm was used but DID NOT KILL. This left out ALL woundings as well as the millions of times annually that a firearm's presence in the home sent intruders fleeing WITHOUT the firearm's being fired.

So called "safe storage" carried to the extremes of many cities and states lends itself to the aid of the intruders.

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The deterrent effect of weapons is well established
Nov 17, 2003 2:00AM PST

'Does allowing people to own or carry guns deter violent crime? Or does it cause more citizens to harm each other? Wherever people happen to fall along the ideological spectrum, their answers are all too often founded upon mere impressionistic and anecdotal evidence. In this direct challenge to conventional wisdom, legal scholar John Lott presents the most rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever done on crime. In this timely and provocative work he comes to a startling conclusion: more guns mean less crime.'

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13530.ctl

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What I have to wonder, Evie...
Nov 16, 2003 12:56PM PST

Evie, what I have to wonder is if they asked about other things that she could have used.
If my wife were so inclined, she could possibly get the gun I keep near, being a poster child for "sitting duck". Granted, she doesn't know what a Dade Speed Loader is, let alone what a storage holder for one looks like, but she's no "dummo" and she could go thru my room when I'm in the bathroom, search it, and put one and one together.
But here's what makes me wonder as I mentioned in my lead in: She could in a trice pick up the bottle of prescription pain killers that are on the table next to my bed and use that. If she did that with that bottle, would I be guilty of manslaughter? Or she could go to the cabinet and use the common over the counter pain killer (the name of which I will not mention) that will prove to be fatal even if the hospital knew what she used. Would I be guilty of manslaughter if I left those available to her, even though she could pick up a bottle at the local 7-11? How about having a rope in the house where she could have easy access to it? Oh, heavens, there are so many other things, my straight edge razor, my old belt knife, and other possibilities.

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Re:What I have to wonder, Evie...
Nov 17, 2003 12:44AM PST

J,

If your wife were so mentally ill we're sure that you would take all necessary steps to deny her access to the most attractive methods of suicide.

Dan

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Most attractive method of suicide
Nov 18, 2003 2:10AM PST

I dunno Dan. Having seen a dead kid with his head opened up like an eaten grapefruit by a bullet, I definitely wouldn't choose that option were I so inclined. My lab partner in college killed herself by ingesting acid in capsules. This prompted a number of us to stay up late one night discussing all sorts of things about suicide and it is quite amazing the predilictions different folks have towards a means they would choose were they so inclined. Pills are an easy way but many fear they will be found and then suffer brain damage. Other thoughts along that line for different possibilities ...

IOW, we don't know if this woman attempted suicide before (although we may infer such as she was hospitalized) and by what means. A car with the engine running is a popular method, so should the guy be relegated to public transportation? No OTC drugs in the home? How about a razor?

It seems to me that if this woman were still so unstable that a gun in the drawer would tempt her to end it all, she should have been under 24/7 surveillance and care in the hospital.

Who knows ... maybe it was in his underwear drawer!

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NT - Criminally negligent homicide rather than manslaughter?
Nov 16, 2003 10:23AM PST

...

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Hopefully his lawyers...
Nov 17, 2003 12:45AM PST

will immediately file suit against the hospital and doctors for "wrongful death" or as his deceased wife's accomplices for allowing a suicidal patient freedom of movement.

She must have passed her "special watch" time and tests.

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Good point ...
Nov 17, 2003 8:59PM PST

... and like I replied to Ange, unless there's a piece of paper somewhere, I think the credibility of the hospital's version of the facts will be questionable. Motive to avoid culpability is pretty strong in this case I think.

Evie Happy

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Re:Man charged in wife's suicide using his gun
Nov 17, 2003 3:52AM PST

Hi, Evie,

Suicides are often committed on impulse. Not all who jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge went there for that expressed purpose,. (This was learned from the few who survived.)

What also struck me was that the gun was kept in a dresser drawer with a three-year-old in the house.

Of course, the article did not say if the bullets were kept elsewhere.

Regardless, the man should have put the weapon where it would not be accessible to his wife, as he promised the doctors.

His wife could, of course, chosen another mode to kill herself. But the availability of the gun could have led to what could have been an impulsive act.

There is a saying... "Beware of the smiling depressed person." This can mean they have made their decision.

If his wife was determined, her husband could not have prevented it, gun or no gun. But a gun is quicker. What muddies the waters is that he promised a gun would not be available.He might get off with "contributory negligence".

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 17, 2003 8:43PM PST

... unless there is something in writing, I'm not so sure we can count on taking the hospital's word on being told to keep the gun away from her. Clearly they released a suicidal person and have motive to place blame elsewhere to avoid their own culpability.

What you say about suicide and impulses is well taken. But I've been to Norwalk CT a number of times and there are MANY rough sections in that city. I'm not sure where they live exactly, but having a gun in the home for protection -- even with a depressed wife -- may really not be as careless as it appears.

I think some sort of negligence may be a more appropriate charge if any. It will be interesting to see as more facts come to light.

Evie Happy

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Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 17, 2003 11:45PM PST

Hi, Evie,

If the hospital followed Joint Commisssion rules (the Joint Commission visits all hospitals at regular intervals to check if proper procdures in all areas-including charting and documentation- are being folowed), then the no-gun bit was noted in writing- probably more than once. There are a bunch of people present at the discharge meeting - the doctor(s), nurse(s), social worker. Each writes up notes.

I feel sorry for the husband, and think he was negligent, but not criminal.

(I still have concern re: the 3 year old.)

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re:Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 18, 2003 1:21AM PST

Hi Angeline,

This is a problem with kneejerk reactions (pro or con) in situations such as this one where we have very few facts.

The Hospital likely does have some documentation and some of it may well be in the same form as the "small print" on contracts that should be read but are just signed without careful reading.

The same article stated '...with one of her husband's licensed handguns.' and later '...he had assured hospital personnel that his wife wouldn't have access to the gun.' (emphasis mine). This begs the question of how many guns did he have and had he long ago given his wife the firearm and forgotten about it (a .32 cal is quite often a 'woman's gun' and if kept in HER dresser drawer he may well have simply forgotten about it (most husbands fear the wrath of their wife if they get into the wife's dresser drawers) ESPECIALLY if she had more than one. I know this is possible because I have given my foster daughter a couple of handguns and had forgotten UNTIL reading this story that I had also LOANED her one that I had forgotten she had borrowed. He may well have forgotten the specific firearm in the inevitable excitement of getting her home although fastidiously securing his others where she could not access them.

Then again it may have been secured in a locked nightstand drawer that he did not know she had a key to or even in a locked drawer that she forced open.

Without much more info than was presented in the short article we, every one of us, are simply speculating.

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Re:Re:Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 18, 2003 2:30AM PST

Hi, Ed,

I cannot argue with your scenarios, as we do not know the facts.

But, I assure you from my personal experience in attending many discharge meetings in a psychiatric hospital, that "fine print" would not have been a part of it. Those present would have made individual entries in the chart. Consider that the hospital also has an interest in covering its rear.

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re:Re:Re:Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 18, 2003 2:39AM PST

hi Angeline,

He may well NOT have been present for many of those meetings and it is possible as it has been proven to have happened before that some parties believed other parties had taken care of notification but for one reason or other they has failed to do so even though the minutes indicated they would.

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Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 18, 2003 4:26AM PST

Hi, Ed,

As her husband, and to whom she was being released, he would have had to be present. She would not have been discharged alone.

One hand not knowing what the other hand was doing, this would not be the case. Everybody on the treatment team, the patient, and the husband would be in attendance.

BTW, hospital records are legal documents.

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:In light of considering Ed's post ...
Nov 19, 2003 12:16AM PST

hi Angeline,

yes, I know those things and I also know that I showed up late (unavoidable) when an uncle was released for home care in my custody (a sister and his wife were present the whole time) and I missed most all of what was said and essentially just signed for his release so I know the ball can get dropped for various reasons at various times.

He was NOT suicidal nor even depressed and just needed assured care (his wife was handicapped) so that may have made a difference but I doubt it.

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Never in my underwear drawer.
Nov 18, 2003 2:53AM PST

I've heard it too many times and too vehemently:

"If I have to put your underwear away ONE MORE TIME..."

I don't want to give her a good ending to that sentence.

*wishing there was a good hiding under the guest bed emoticon*

Dan

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I must wonder, Angeline....
Nov 18, 2003 1:37AM PST

Angeline, I must wonder if those Joint Commisssion rules require, as you called it," the no-gun bit". If not, why would anybody necessairally put that in their notes to make sure that they followed the Joint Commisssion rules?

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What would have been written
Nov 18, 2003 2:51AM PST

During the discharge meeting each one present would make notes for the chart- the doctors in their section, the nurses in their section, and the social worker in his/her section. They would individually note the promise about the gun.

Joint commission rules would not specifically require routine notations about guns, as guns are not applicable to all patients. If a patient had attempted suicide with one before, that would, of course be noted in the history. What they do require is that a complete record be kept of what transpires on addmission (accompanied by a history) , during the hospitalization and at discharge by each member of the treatment team. It sure makes for a tome of paper work, a lot of which is redundant. That redundancy is in place to avoid stuff being overlooked. (I don't know if psych hospitals have gone to computer charting, but it still would take a lot of time.)

I hope I have answeed your question. Holler if I haven't. Happy

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Ugh! Joint commission reviews!
Nov 18, 2003 3:08AM PST

You're giving me flashbacks!

Dan

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Pesky, aren't they! :-)
Nov 18, 2003 4:29AM PST
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Ton of paper work, Angeline...
Nov 18, 2003 4:52AM PST

Angeline, it may not weigh out as a ton, but you ought to see what happens if you drop a mil on a hospital and demand a hard copy of all your medical records. (grin)