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General discussion

Macook Pro Question

Mar 14, 2011 1:00AM PDT

Hi, I start my new job next month, entry level java developer. I have been a .Net developer ever since I got out of school. I was pondering if buying a mac book pro would be ideal for java? I've had windows laptops before and they have become clunky, slow, unexpected problems and such. I'm not an average computer user, I take care of my pc's and personally I never had nay problems before. But I recently have been working for the dep of education and they have lent me a macbook to check out and use to test our web apps. I really like it and was considering buying one. I've been a windows user all my life but I have also liked OSX. Would a macbook pro be good for java development? I'm not sure what Vanguard uses for Java development but I am sure it will most likely be windows pc's. Any ideas?

Discussion is locked

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While one can figure out why a machine gets slow.
Mar 14, 2011 1:04AM PDT

I find most of the time it's the full hard drive or in the case of Windows, the overlapping protection software.

Your choice of Apple is commendable but I'd wait to see what they supply for the machine. Or does this company expect you to supply the company with development machines?
Bob

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Development Machine
Mar 14, 2011 1:29AM PDT

The machine I am purchasing will be for my own use, in case I have to develop any of my work at home out of the office. I am sure that they provide all developers with computers on site but as I currently work for the dept of education, I can get a discount on apple computers so I figured before I quit here, buy a mac pro. Just not sure how good it would be for Java development.

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I'm going to have to say no
Mar 14, 2011 11:00AM PDT

I'm going to have to say no, primarily because Apple has expelled Java from their upcoming 10.7 version of Mac OS X, and it doesn't look like the OpenJDK people are going to be ready in time.

So you would have a hard time getting a JVM on the machine with which to actually compile the code into bytecode and test it out. You could potentially hang back on 10.6 until such time that OpenJDK comes around, or Oracle decides that they're not going to wait and either does it on their own or bribes Apple to do something like make the 10.6 JVM work with 10.7.

You could install Windows on a MBP, but then it really becomes a pointless added expense.

If you don't mind not upgrading to 10.7 when it's released this spring/summer, and are content to wait until the OpenJDK project has something workable, then I'd say go ahead. Mac laptops are quite popular among Java developers. But if you would want to have the latest and greatest OS more or less the first day it becomes available, then I would say you should probably find yourself a PC laptop.

All of this may be subject to change. Apple recently released an updated JVM for 10.6 after they said they were not going to provide further updates, so there seems to be some level of wiggle room. Whether or not you want to bet over $1000 on things changing to be a bit more Java friendly is your decision.

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Interesting
Mar 14, 2011 11:00PM PDT

I heard from a friend working there that most likely I will not get a laptop but I would get a desktop in my office. So guessing the laptop would be for my own use wherever I would need it. If this is the case, I would like a Mac, just because I may have to write code at home. I'm just unsure of what JDK the company currently uses. I was also looking at the HP Envy, also seems like a nice machine. I guess I enjoy OSX a lot too.

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IMO
Mar 15, 2011 11:25AM PDT

IMO, HP anything is a non-starter. Carly Fiorina may be gone from the company, but her legacy of driving the computer business into the ground quality wise still remains. It was after her reign that someone in HP had the brilliant idea of stuffing desktop CPUs into laptops, then the things were literally melting the cases from the heat they generated. They're far from alone on idiotic stunts like that, but HP's computer business is one of a bottom feeder. Ever since HP and Compaq merged, ending their epic struggle to be the world's worst computer manufacturer, Acer stepped in to challenge them for the toilet bowl crown and that race to the bottom has been going on for the past 11 years or so.

You can always write Java code on a Mac, you just won't be able to test it outside of the conditions I outlined unless something changes.

I've worked as a hardware tech for the past couple of years, and I'll just share my personal opinions with you on the various brands.

Acer/Gateway/eMachines: Pure garbage. Wouldn't touch them with a stolen 10ft pole. If you buy an Acer system, expect to do any and all support yourself, including hardware. Your warranty will be of more use as toilet paper than it will in getting your system fixed.

HP/Compaq: Also pure garbage, wouldn't touch with a stolen 10ft pole. Systems made pre-2000ish might not be too bad, but obviously aren't going to be the best for use today. HP is big on using odd proprietary bits of hardware like a HDD docking bay that only accepts drives with a special connector that naturally only HP licenses. You will probably get your system fixed under warranty... Eventually. If their computer business is anything like their printer business, expect to wait 1-2 weeks, maybe more, for the warranty part to even arrive.

Lenovo: They still have a little ways to go before reaching the levels of HP and Acer, but not for a lack of trying. They've done an admirable job of taking IBM's computer business, which was probably the #2 in quality at the time of sale, and driving it into the ground. Word has it, even IBM has finally dumped Lenovo in favor of Toshiba to outfit everyone with laptops in the company. One particular example I like to give for Lenovo, is I was working on a ThinkPad one time, and they literally taped (with scotch tape) one of the wireless card antenna cables to the CPU heatsink. That one was a real head scratcher for me, and I still haven't figured out *** they were thinking. Assuming the cable doesn't one day melt, the shielding of the insulation is likely not going to be sufficient to block out all the noise generated by the CPU.

Toshiba: If you avoid their low and high end units, they're not bad. They're not great, but they're not bad. Getting warranty repairs is another story. I've literally waited about a month to get warranty parts from Toshiba... On NUMEROUS occasions. The good news is that their build quality is usually good enough that repairs should be infrequent.

Sony and Fujitsu I have no experience with, so can't really comment.

Dell: Like Toshiba, except they have much better warranty support. Dell doesn't tend to screw around with warranty repairs. They do a good job of stocking repair parts, and parts usually arrive within 2-3 business days. You take a system in for repair, it'll probably be back in your hands within a week.

Apple: By far and away the best I've seen. Design and build quality coming together in a very nice symbiotic way. While other companies all use plastic, most Apple models use metal cases. Even the MacBook, which has a plastic case, feels like a higher quality of plastic compared to other computers. I do have some gripes about the screws used internally on some models, which tend to strip out very easily, but odds are that won't be your problem. Apple does not screw around with warranty repairs either, and Apple has financial incentives in place for repair shops to turn things around quickly, but also making sure they get the job done right the first time. Repair parts usually ship out within 24 hours, they arrive within 2-3 business days (most of the time it's because FedEx screwed up if things take longer) and like Dell, you'll likely be in and out within a week.

Again, these are just my opinions, take them for whatever they're worth to you.

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Many options
Mar 15, 2011 1:24PM PDT

Thanks Jimmy, I went to a best buy to browse, didn't really like any models there. I like the samsung laptops, heard they are good. I've had all dell computers ever since I went to college and my xps m1530 runs vista still. It still is really fast and works fine only problem is my batter is dying and I have too much crap on there from college course work that I do not feel like wiping away or trying to back up. Dell's warranty is great if you buy the extra warranty options. My xps laptop was repaired 7 times!! The technician knew me and my family members by name, I swear. They would come in and replace various parts inside the computer. Processor was replaced, hard drive replaced twice, even the plastic casing. It had a problem rebooting and turning on by itself when the lid was shut. So now I am kind of afraid from dells.

So I just ended up emailing my HR rep at Vanguard and asked if they knew how to contact my development manager or get me any info of what they will supply me with. I know I will get a desktop when I am there but if they say any laptop will do then I may just fork over the cash for a mac. Most likely they will want me to have a windows laptop so then my choice would either have to be a samsung or an asus.

Only reason I would get a mac is because by next week I won't be working for the dept of education anymore so I will not be eligible for the discount Sad

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Samsung
Mar 15, 2011 11:36PM PDT

Samsung... Rumor has it they poached virtually the entire computer division at Sony to get that up and going. So for all intents and purposes, Samsung systems are probably the same as Sony design wise. They just may not be as ridiculously overpriced as Sony. Never worked on any, so can't say, but it also seems a bit early to tell what the quality will be like.

Asus is another relative newcomer. They've been making individual components for a long time, but only recently whole computers. Never worked on one, but I'd again say it may be a bit early to reach any conclusions about quality. They did more or less create the netbook with the EeePC, but they've only been at it a couple of years.

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Maybe a mac after all
Mar 16, 2011 12:47AM PDT

I'm waiting to see what my development manager says about laptops before purchasing one. If he says macs will be ok then I mind as well get one and run windows when I need it incase I have to code at home.

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Best of Both Worlds
Mar 18, 2011 9:12AM PDT

On one hand, The MAC Osx can give you the change you may want to experience since you've been using windows all your life

On the other hand, you could get a macbook pro, partition windows so that you can do java coding, and test the project (since you say that you had to use the mac to test it in the description) and see how it comes out.

It gives you both the entertainment and functional value. A good reason for it's higher pricing

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But
Mar 18, 2011 10:54AM PDT

But, like I already said in my initial analysis, if a good chunk of the reason for buying the thing is so that work could be done on it... Work that needs tools Mac OS X may not have for a time... Putting Windows on there is a pointless extra expense when PC laptops include the cost of Windows in the purchase price. You'd be adding an extra $150 or so to the price for a copy of Windows 7 at full retail.

In my experience, most people never actually make use of a dual boot. They spend 90% or more of their time in one OS or the other. If that's going to be Windows, why buy a Mac? Once the OP figures out those details, it makes the decision much easier. Nice as Apple laptops are, there's no point paying extra for something.

Which presents an interesting possibility. Have you considered maybe just getting a cheap PC netbook selayan? Just something that will tide you over for maybe 6-12 months while the Java situation settles on OS X? Then you can pick up a nice Apple laptop when you're sure that it will be able to suit your needs.

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Waiting seems ok I suppose
Mar 19, 2011 7:34AM PDT

I guess I won't find out what I should buy until I start work next month. I have found out some information that seems Oracle will take part in building the JDK for Macs. It will be known as Open JDK: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html

Netbooks are small and I could never use one the way I would want to. I have an xps laptop running vista now but only works when plugged in all the time. Either way, I buy mac now and save 100 bucks compared to buying it after I start the new job since I won't be eligible for the discount afterward.

The more I research and look at computers or anything in general, the less I want it haha. So now I'm not all hott about buying one as I was when I first made this post.

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Yeah
Mar 19, 2011 8:39AM PDT

Yeah, I wouldn't get too excited about the Oracle involvement in OpenJDK either. That basically just means Oracle will give them the testing tools needed to certify that the OpenJDK will run programs the same as their official JDK. They are highly unlikely to devote any real resources to its development.

For at least the time being, it appears that when 10.7 lands, Java on OS X will be effectively dead for some unknown amount of time. Which may not be such a bad thing for the Mac platform, but certainly sucks for you and other Java developers.

One other possibility that came to mind is a VPN connection to your work system, or a work system with all the necessary dev tools. Far from an ideal solution, but for things like writing code it may be workable.

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Wait
Mar 19, 2011 1:16PM PDT

I just wish big companies such as the one I'll be working for would be more open to submitting more information on the kind of hardware they use. Even the HR people were suppose to get in contact with my manager and I never heard back. Oh well I guess thegood thing about them not giving employees laptops is that I won't need to do work at home Happy I guess I will wait to see what happens. It's hard to find a cool looking laptop that's not looking like it's made from fisher price plastic

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That's part of the problem
Mar 19, 2011 11:04PM PDT

That's part of the problem these days, is too many people buy computers based on aesthetics alone. In some ways, Apple started this with the original iMac, but what the computer looks like should be your LOWEST priority when buying. I don't care if a computer looks like something a dog threw up so long as it works. Bonus if it also looks nice, but function trumps form.

Whatever you end up buying, if anything at all, make sure you buy more based on things like how well it will do the job you need it to do. That should be the criteria given the largest amount of weight. Then you can move on to things like build quality, and reliability of the brand in general. Finally getting to price and aesthetics. Buying a laptop based on how it looks is like shopping for groceries on an empty stomach. You're going to regret it later on.