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Looks like a pretty clear straight line average since 1978

by Rob_Boyter / February 22, 2014 11:33 AM PST

Sure year to year there are variances, but the median plot is a straight line indicating decreasing snow and ice cover in the arctic, meaning greater warming each year. It doesn't matter what the reason is, it's very ominous.

Will it change? Who knows. It looks like we bequeath a pretty lousy world to our children and grand children. Greater chances of drought, lower agricultural yeilds. Not good.

Anybody want to work on a huge white yarmulka for the earth? With wind turbines on top. kind of like a multi-propeller beanie : P

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Have you looked
by James Denison / February 22, 2014 11:37 AM PST

at the huge land area that is continually covered in snow and ice, also the area that is too cold to grow any food for 6 months or more per year? Just imagine if all that was available on a warmer earth? So, a few islands go under the water, and some coastline area is flooded and people retreat from it, the big picture is there would be MORE livable space for all concerned and likely a greater food growing ability on this earth.

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RE:some coastline area is flooded and people retreat from it
by JP Bill / February 22, 2014 12:28 PM PST
In reply to: Have you looked
the big picture is there would be MORE livable space for all concerned and likely a greater food growing ability on this earth.

It's just that easy?

So then you can grow food on the North Pole, now all you have to do is....move people up to the North Pole where the food is OR figure out a cheap way to ship the food to where the people are.
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No land on the North Pole
by Diana Forum moderator / February 27, 2014 6:27 AM PST

Have to do it on the South Pole.

The problem isn't global warming but climate change. It is warming which might bring more desert and you can see some of the problem this year in California with the drought and then the floods and landslides. You will get a lot of coastal flooding and might lose some of the agriculture lands. This year can show that getting rid of the Artic ice will cause problems because of lake effect snow from that far north. I know that we get snow all winter because Ontario doesn't freeze while Buffalo turns off the snow machine when Erie freezes. I the Artic doesn't freeze we will get more of these Polar Vortexes.


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The drought in CA was avoidable
by TONI H / February 27, 2014 7:15 AM PST

The Federal Govt dammed up a natural water resource forcing an entire farming community into drought conditions to save a one-inch fish.

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by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / February 27, 2014 7:20 AM PST

And a fish that wasn't there before the creation of the dam/lake.

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Washington or Oregon and The Snail Darter, if memory serves.
by Rob_Boyter / February 27, 2014 11:48 AM PST
In reply to: Klamath?

Every hairy, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal pi$$ing and moaning about "The Feds trying to protect a dumb fish or a dumb owl" which was threatened because of logging and deforestation and the silting up of the watersheds because treeless slopes lose their soil which covers the gravel which most breeds of fish need to spawn, particularly Pacific Salmon. And Pacific Salmon feed on what exactly when they reach fresh water?? Think it might be the Snail Darter on their way up the rivers to breed and lay their eggs and die?? Duh.

(Please note, that "Duh" is not directed at you, Bob, but at some who might have skipped the lesson in high-school about Pacific Coast ecology and the inter-connected web of the West Coast.)

If you lose the salmon you lose the forests. For 15 thousand years or more, the salmon have been caught by Grizzlies and Brown Bears as they go upstream to spawn. Grizzlies and Brownies are messy eaters, they may eat only about half of the fish they catch, but the fish rot down to replenish the soil with nutrients. They do it so well that you get some of the biggest trees in the world from that interaction. Now California has its endangered Redwoods (Sequoia) but no healthy salmon population or healthy Grizzly population to cause the replenishment of the soil, and the fragile giants, once they've lost the surrounding trees which protected and supported the largest at their centre, have a tendency to be damaged by high winds. The tops snap off.

They have done some great DNA studies which prove the interaction of the Salmon, the Grizzlies, and the trees. They can trace salmon DNA both in bear scat and in the cells of the trees apparently.

As I understand it, the US Salmon fishery is pretty much dead, except for the boats that come up the coast to fish in Canadian Waters. The Canadian fishery is, I hope, stable but usually the first warning sign of a crash in fish stocks, is ... a crash in fish stocks. There's not a lot of warning, or at least not a warning people whose livelihood and much costly equipment is bound up in the fisheries are willing to recognize. The Atlantic Cod Fishery is dead as a doornail, cod stocks are not rebounding.

Canada has a remarkably strong environmental record. The Black-Footed Ferret was rescued from extremely low numbers and has been re-introduced to the prairies. The Burrowing Owl, also on the brink of extinction has been reintroduced to the prairies to continue keeping the gopher population in check (that's not why it was reintroduced but it's the effect of reintroducing both the Ferret and the Owl.) The Black-Footed Ferret was down to 122 individuals, or so my old National Geographic used to tell me on the back page. I don't know how low the Burrowing Owl got but I'm reasonably certain it was about 50 individuals. Once people figured out that having the Whooping Crane around was kind of nice they too were brought back from the verge of extinction. There were just 27 individuals of that species at one point.

There is still a programme here since Canada is the breeding ground which pinches Whooping Crane eggs, and sticks them under the vastly more common Sandhill Cranes to be raised, forcing the Whoopers to lay new eggs which they do when the first lot is taken. Double the number of young reared each year. There has been a major programme as long as I've been here to re-introduce the Swift Fox to the Prairies, spear headed by an English woman who has devoted her life to saving the species. The young of both the ferrets and the foxes were particularly vulnerable in their first year to predation by large Hawks and Golden Eagles. Their first few months are lived under a wire canopy which keeps the hawks at bay until they bulk up and get some smarts, after that, they're moved to various sites to re-inhabit all across the Prairies which is 3 large Provinces.


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There is a problem judging just what fish were there,
by Rob_Boyter / February 27, 2014 11:55 AM PST
In reply to: Klamath?

when nobody had done a thorough study of the watersheds until the 1970's. If they weren't there, just how did they get in the rivers or the reservoirs? And now that they're there, shouldn't we do something to preserve the bio-diversity.

As I recall it, the Snail Darter was found during either Ford's or Carter's administration, and the political nastiness directed at Carter used the "dumb fish" as a weapon to try to make him look like he was overly concerned about the environment. Have you ever driven through New Jersey? That's what you get when you aren't concerned about the Environment. The Garden State ended in the 30's, now it's the petro-chemical State Dump.


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what hurts one helps another
by James Denison / February 27, 2014 12:25 PM PST

Look at the great lakes. Before you had to put a line in the water to fish, but now there are so many they will just jump into your boat, so long as you like eating carp.

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(NT) So far not in the Great Lakes, and I hope they never get thr
by Rob_Boyter / February 27, 2014 1:17 PM PST
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I'm sorry but you're entirely wrong, Toni.
by Rob_Boyter / February 27, 2014 10:57 AM PST
Most of the dams and water projects have been California State projects, not Federal ones, so there's your first error. Secondly the entirely natural drought has been caused by changes to the Jet Stream and weather patterns which have not dropped previously common amounts of rain or snow for the last 10 years. The big storm in January? NOAA and California authorities both agree that they need that amount of snowfall 3 more times to refill depleted reservoirs for this year, and about the same regularly for years into the future to keep them topped up, and to replenish the underground aquifers.

The Feds didn't build the dams, didn't re-route the water, and haven't turned off the Rain God despite what others may be telling you.

The greatest usage of water surprisingly isn't the Cities, it's the San Joaquin Valley agribusinesses there. They use about 2/3rds of the water in the state.

And this isn't the snail darter we're talking about it's the California version of the smelt which was healthy enough until about 3 years ago when the drought really bit deep. The level of diversion of Water from North to South has occurred because the San Joaquin valley has sucked its own underground aquifers dry, and now needs additional water in order to keep the salt water from the Ocean (remember the ocean??) from percolating its way inland and causing saline damage to the soil making it unproductive for centuries, if not millennia.


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No it wasn't, and the Feds had nothing to do with it.
by Rob_Boyter / February 27, 2014 1:15 PM PST

Blame Jerry Brown, and his dad, if you want, but try to get at least some facts straight. And the smelt which may be 2 or 3 inches long isn't that big an issue, you're trying to confuse this with the Snail Darter.


The multitude of climate and water scientists from all the Universities in California who are studying this situation are worryied about a once in 500 years drought due to changed weather patterns, not due to any "tree huggers" trying to block water projects.

Read any of the records connected to Mother Jones extensive articles on the California Drought and you will see two things, The Drought is a result of 2 years of drought and an expected third this year, in other words climate change, and the California State Water Project and the Central Valley Project.

"the creation of Central Valley Project and the State Water Project" Both State initiatives.


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