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General discussion

Looking for quality with 20x zoom

Jun 28, 2006 3:50AM PDT

My old Canon ZR45 quit on me so I am looking for a replacement. It had an 18x zoom and I have found that for the type of videoing I do that I couldn't go any lower. I have been doing a lot of research and would love to get a High Definition camera but have only found them to go up to 10x (the Panasonic reaches 12x). I was not happy with the quality of my old canon as I shot in a lot of low-light conditions. What is the best quality camcorder I can expect to buy for the zoom I need?

Discussion is locked

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Zoom
Jun 28, 2006 1:20PM PDT

Have you considered a telephoto lens??
You could get the camera you want and add one of these you know??

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Thanks
Jun 28, 2006 11:45PM PDT

I had no idea you could get a telephoto lens for these types of cameras. Thanks so much for the info, that makes my decision much easier!

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How much quality?
Jun 29, 2006 1:13PM PDT

I thought 20x sounded familiar. The Canon XL2 comes with a 20x lense. So does its HD sibling the XL-H1. So does the Canon GL2, and all of them have optical stabilization.

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PS: Adaptors that mount in front of the existing lense, will
Jun 29, 2006 1:15PM PDT

almost certainly degrade the camera's low light performance. That's probably one reason Canon does not take that route.

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telephoto
Jun 29, 2006 2:35PM PDT

Well of course they do, but so does a 20x zoom.
What kind of low light ability do you think you're going to get at full 20x zoom??
A 2x telephoto lens is a cost effective way to make a nice 10x camcorder into a 20x camcorder. You can get a high quality 2x telephoto lens for well under $200.

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You're going to get what the camera says you are
Jun 29, 2006 3:39PM PDT

getting. If you put an adaptor on it, you will degrade the camera's performance at all aperture and shutter speed settings. The camera can no longer tell you what you are getting. An adaptor interferes with both low light performance and lense performance. In other words, it degrades the image. It is a very poor choice if you want quality video.

You don't get anything for nothing. You cannot get the performance of the GL2 lense by attaching a $200 adaptor to a 10x lense. However, if you want a degraded 10x image, you can get that with an adaptor.

At the very least, you should have a review which shows how well the adaptor performs with a specific camera.

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telephoto
Jul 1, 2006 5:47AM PDT

Kiddpeat,
I agree with you that you will lost some quality.
The image quality with a GL2 in general will surpass most any $700 camera out there.
I agree that you pay for the lens, which is why the GL2 is $1800.
You can get a very good zoom lens for under $200.
You can still get very high quality from a 10x camcorder with this lens attached. I've done it.
I'm just saying that if you want a $700 camcorder and put a $200 telephoto on it, you're still ahead by $900.
That is quite a chunk of change.

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When you say that you are ahead $900, you imply that
Jul 1, 2006 6:51AM PDT

you are getting the same result. You aren't. Not even close. You lose clarity, resolution, contrast, and light. If that's acceptable to you, then I guess you are ahead of the game, but then you didn't want quality to begin with.

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lens
Jul 1, 2006 7:15AM PDT

Have you ever used a telephoto lens??

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Yes, I have used a telephoto lense.
Jul 1, 2006 9:21AM PDT

Have I ever used a telephoto adaptor? Yes. It is made by Canon specifically to fit Canon lenses, and Canon tells me the extent to which it degrades the lense' performance. Have I ever used a third party adaptor on a video camera with no review to tell me how it would perform? Absolutely not! I don't believe in wasting my money.

Perhaps you can link us to a review that will tell us about the wonderful performance and results to be obtained?

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Lens
Jul 1, 2006 9:36AM PDT

Geesh, you don't have to get upset.

I am talking from experience with wide angle and telephoto lenses that I have used. Some have been junk, but some are quite good.
I don't know what website does reviews on lenses.
I wouldn't trust them anyway. Most reviews sites don't do very good "real world" tests and are often very bias.
I have found a lot of good info over at camcorderinfo.com as well as dvinfo.net
Both sites have user opinions on these things.
I find real world users very helpful in searching for such an item.

Did you get poor results from your Canon telephoto lens??

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If I could not back up my recommendations,
Jul 1, 2006 12:32PM PDT

I would not suggest that other people spend their money with the possibility that it will be wasted. At the very least, performance and features need to be checked to see if the camera's performance is improved. I suspect that there is a good reason why add on lenses are not reviewed.

BTW, the adaptor I have has been reviewed, but it is not intended for a video lense.

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Telephoto
Jul 1, 2006 1:02PM PDT

So you're saying that since I can't find a review, I shouldn't recommend a telephoto lens??
Even though I own one and have gotten very good results with it??
Even though I have read up on user opinions and offer the location of these opinions to others??
You base quality on review sites, thats fine. Others use word of mouth and advice from forum members. Some of us also experience it for ourselves.

I don't understand what you mean about your lens.
Is it a telephoto lens or not??
What do you mean that it has been reviewed but is not intended for a video lens.

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You said some that you had were junk, and some were not.
Jul 1, 2006 3:37PM PDT

I guess you didn't find out which was which until after you paid for them. What process do you go through to determine that an add on lense has improved the camera's performance? What guidelines did you offer to tell the difference between junk and non-junk?

You do realize that there are cameras other than video cameras I hope. Those cameras also have lenses including telephotos. I also have two video cameras with 20x telephoto lenses, but neither uses an adaptor. All of the equipment I mentioned has been reviewed including the performance of the lense.

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Lenses
Jul 2, 2006 2:18AM PDT

kiddpeat, you are correct. Some of the lenses I have purchased were not good. I paid for them and did not like them.
The process to determine that an add on lens improved the cameras performance.... It doubles the zoom or widens the angle of view. That is the purpose of these lenses. Does it improve the performance?? In the aspect that it does what it is supposed to, yes.
The tests that I did to tell which ones were good and which were not was.... I used my eyes. It may be crude and not as effective as a chart or a review web site, but I can tell if my video looks good or not.

I realize that there are other cameras. Are you saying that your lens was designed for a still camera??

I'm glad that you are happy with your equipment. I am happy with mine.
The original poster asked for opinions. I gave mine.
If you want to point the poster in the direction of reviews, go for it. Just don't knock other peoples experiences because you haven't had the same.

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If I think misleading information has been given, I will
Jul 2, 2006 5:08AM PDT

attempt to clarify and/or correct that information.

In this case, the information was that 20x performance could be obtained from an add on. As you now confirm, this is a risky prospect. It may not work, and there is no way of knowing until after the money is wasted. Further, your test process does not say what the effect on low light performance is. That is critical information since the original poster is concerned about low light performance. Even in the best of cases, adaptors degrade the camera's ability to function in low light conditions. Even one of the best cases, a Canon adaptor made for Canon lenses, causes a loss of two f stops in performance. The f stop on a GL2 at one shutter setting changes from 1.6 at maximum wide angle to 2.8 at maximum telephoto. That means that the $700 camera has to achieve an aperture of 1.6 at its full telephoto setting, and be coupled with an extender that limits the light loss to two f stops before it will match the GL2's performance. I'll leave it to you to figure out how likely that is.

I should remind you that you responded to my post, I did not respond to yours. It is fine to post your own experience, but you should be prepared to have errors pointed out if you do so. No one is helped if information is misleading, incomplete, or likely to be misunderstood.

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telephoto
Jul 2, 2006 5:23AM PDT

I did not say I wasted money on them. The dealers that I purchase from offer a refund policy. If I am not happy with the product, I return it for a full refund.
Sure you may not know until you try it, but that is the way it goes sometimes.

I can confirm that my current telephoto shows no loss in quality in good or low light. Images appear the same quality at 10x zoom or 20x zoom. This is my personal experience.

It sounds like you have had a poor experience with an add on telephoto lens. That is fine.

You are trying to point out errors in my own personal experience. I can appreciate you pointing out errors, but you can't claim to know my personal experience.
That would be misleading, incomplete, and very hard for me to understand.

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I didn't say I had a bad experience. I tried to give you a
Jul 2, 2006 8:47AM PDT

best case explanation of how light is lost using known, high quality equipment. No one has repealed the laws of physics. If you use an add on adaptor, you will lose light. It will be at least two f stops, and more than likely much more than that.

At this point, I don't think that you would recognize a loss of light in your equipment. It will show up as an increase in noise in the video and/or a partial loss of color.