Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

Looking back at Iraq

May 28, 2006 11:16PM PDT

by Victor Davis Hanson

There may be a lot to regret about the past policy of the United States in the Middle East, but the removal of Saddam Hussein and the effort to birth democracy in his place is surely not one of them. And we should remember that this Memorial Day.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson052606.html

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
Reply to Ken's mother
May 29, 2006 12:58AM PDT

Your son was proud to do what he did in the Military....and you do him an injustice by complaining that he didn't make it home by making it sound as if what he was proud of doing wasn't worthwhile because it's not what you would have chosen for him. He was a MAN and not a little boy anymore and had the ability to make his own decisions whether you agreed with them or not.

I understand you loved him (love him still) and miss him; however, the term MILITARY means just that. It means having an armed presence and risks (including the likelihood) of not making it back from a war are a reality with the military.

If you think about it on a more every day level, the risk of your child not coming home at night as a teenager behind the wheel of a car are far more frightening than the risks taken as part of the military. The military trains men and women to survive in harsh environments.....teenagers with cars get nowhere near the actual training they require to cope with a moving piece of steel either surrounding them in their cushioned seat or another moving piece of steel heading right at them. Your son could have very easily become part of a daily statistic that most people 'take for granted' and casually as they read the local newspaper about that accident that killed another teen.

I am truly sorry that your son was one of the ones who didn't come home from Iraq....but this is a war going on over there. Think about the service men and women who had their barracks bombed a few years back during 'peace time' who didn't make it back and who we all thought were relatively safe at the time.

Your son was fighting the bad guys. If you could turn your anger into pride that he was courageous and dedicated to his country enough to want to fight the good fight, you would actually feel a whole lot better knowing his life wasn't wasted at all. He was doing something he felt was important enough to do, and not many of us get a chance to find that (or we let the chance to slip by because it's easier to let somebody else do it for us). I don't think Ken had any regrets.

I am proud of him and all the others who serve. Please understand that you do not speak for the rest of us who have children in the Military and feel differently about it than you. Your open letter makes it appear that we support your view when we don't.

TONI

- Collapse -
It is a tragedy for any family to lose a child. I can
May 29, 2006 3:51AM PDT

understand the grief that causes some families to flail out in rage.

However, this mother seems to dishonor her son's choices. It is not always possible for the military to dot every i and cross every t before troops go into combat. Sometimes, they just have to go with what they have. That doesn't mean they shouldn't go.

If there's going to be a fight with terrorists, and they really haven't left us with a choice, it's far better to have it where military force can be used than to have it here in our streets. There's always a price to be paid for freedom. Those who aren't willing to pay that price will lose their freedom.

- Collapse -
Lt Ballard's birthday will be here soon
May 29, 2006 12:12PM PDT

so I am sending 4 messages (screenshots actually) to his mother. I am sure she will be very proud that her son died defending the american way. this will add to her memorial day and her only son's sacrifice.

Here is a face to go with all your sympathy.

http://www.ltkenballard.com/

- Collapse -
her sons not alone
May 29, 2006 2:15PM PDT

what about all the nam vets who died and who came home to be spit on byt the scum here?

where were you then? such rot you people and your holly than though sicken me

- Collapse -
suggest starting new discussion; re:nam vets
May 29, 2006 9:15PM PDT

iraq is the issue here.
where was I? illinois ang 1966-1972.

the spitting stories are exaggerated, almost urban myth. I will not deny that some protesters where vile in language and signage.
my ten friends from my chicago neighborhood (including myself) who served were NEVER spit upon. I do not believe anti-war advocates had the desire to take on a combat trained warrior.

and a general question from me, not to you who did serve; what did you do in the war daddy?

- Collapse -
well you can call the truth a myth
May 29, 2006 11:15PM PDT

as i experianced it.
you can say what you want we who experianced it wont let you forget the truth.

and as to this being about iraq, the same scum is giveing the enemy strength, by there actions and our media.
remember when you forget the past it comes back and bites you in the ***.
so you want to ignore the way it is
remember the past

- Collapse -
I used the word 'exaggeration'
May 29, 2006 11:22PM PDT

which makes it implicit that it did occur. I have heard this from many from that era. I reported what I know. Apparently there was more saliva than substance in history. of course what I just typed is history.

- Collapse -
and when you forget your history
May 30, 2006 2:47AM PDT

it comes back to bite youHappy

- Collapse -
Re: remember the past
May 30, 2006 12:24AM PDT

Yes

But don't live in it.

- Collapse -
we dont nor shouls we ignore it
May 30, 2006 2:49AM PDT

seems some people think vietnam wasnt important nor the way we were treated on return.
because the aholes are doing it again the demonstrations at funerals is a start along with more of there ilk

- Collapse -
Cannot do anything but sympathise with
May 30, 2006 9:08AM PDT

a grieving mother.

BUT I wish to point out a small difference in wording between her [emotional] letter and a bare fact:

''You sent my only child to his untimely death.''

Actually, he had a choice; ''He went'' more accurate than ''You sent.''

Even under Hitler and Stalin many took the opposite path. Bush/Cheney not in that league, politically.

Like the difference between "victim" and "martyr."

- Collapse -
Too may inaccuracies to go into exhaustively
May 29, 2006 12:52PM PDT

but I can tell you the article is for the most part, just one long series of wishful thinking assumptions and amateurish attempts at rewriting history.

First off this idea that Iraq/Saddam Hussein was a threat to the U.S. is a red herring:
- Saddam Hussein possessed a pathetic third world army with 70's and earlier vintage Soviet equipment. His rank and file, mostly conscript, military was under-trained and demoralized.
- There is no proof that Saddam Hussein ever attempted or planned an attack on the U.S. using WMDs.
- A common mistake in assessing his Pre-war threat status is that his possession of WMDs meant he was going to attack the U.S.. Wrong. Possession of a weapon does not mean intent to use it. Ask an American gun owner.
- If Saddam Hussein did have WMDs and the intent to use them, there is no evidence that he had the means to deliver them.
- In 2001 both Condi Rice and Powell declared that sanctions and no-fly zones were working and that Saddam Hussein had no WMDs.

The idea that ''everyone'' thought that Saddam had WMDs is demonstrably false. The CIA was by no means convinced or unanimous that Saddam had any WMDs.
Tyler Drumheller the CIA's top man in Europe, the head of covert operations there, until he retired a year ago has said that Bush ignored intelligence that contradicted his desire that Saddam have WMDs and that many CIA analysts were skeptical of the Iraq/WMD business.
Drumheller also states that a trusted high-level source inside Saddam's regime said that there was no WMD program.
Drumheller said the ''Policy was set''.
The policy was indeed set as the Downing street memos show
-Rolf Ekeus head of the U.N. inspection team that left Iraq in 2000 said ''There are no large quantities of weapons [in Iraq]''
-The DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
STUDY ON IRAQ'S CHEMICAL WEAPONS PROGRAM states:
''There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons, or where Iraq has -- or will -- establish its chemical warfare agent production facilities
-The Iraq-Niger-Uranium story has long since been laid to rest.
-The aluminum tubes were not proof of a nuclear program as anybody with knowledge of the subject could have seen.
-Bush/Cheney tried to claim that Saddam had fired up a nuclear weapons program. The claim was false as the IAEA report to UN Security Council ? 3/7/2003 makes clear:?The IAEA had found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq.''
-CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program
-Richard Clarke, former top anti-terrorism adviser, has said President Bush ordered him to look for a link between Iraq and 911, despite being told there really wasn't one.
-Robin Cook, the former foreign secretary stated in 2003 that Blair knew Saddam had no WMDs


The article makes this claim:
>>>The Kurds would remain in perpetual danger<<<
They still are. The Turks are very nervous about the possibility of a Kurdish state being created and the enormous potential for a civil war in Turkey that would result. Only threats from the U.S. keep the Turks from invading the Kurdish region in Iraq.
- Under the no-fly zone regime the Kurds were in no danger from Saddam Hussein. Any time Saddam Hussein moved his troops into the Kurd region the U.S. and Brits were all over him. IN fact, under Saddam the Kurds enjoyed a good degree of autonomy as a result of the no-fly zones.

Regarding the welfare of the Shia, the article makes this claim:
>>>The Shiites would simply be harvested yearly, in quiet, by Saddam?s police state.<<<
Not exactly. According to the world Bank the pop. growth of Iraq was a robust 3.25% avg. over the course of the height of Saddam's tyranny. That means Shia may have been mistreated and abused but not murdered wholesale as we are often lead to believe. Unless of course someone is prepared to argue that the Iraq's pop. growth was only in the Sunni area that Saddam did not tyrannize. In which case you would have a much much larger Sunni population in Iraq than you do now.
- Many Shia were not affected adversely by Saddam Hussein. Many had cut sweet deals with Saddam Hussein, for example farming families. Many middle class Shia in fact supported Saddam Hussein because of his secular approach to government.


The author claims the U.S. invasion of Iraq led to good things in the region:
The article claims that Ghaddafi abandoned his missile and WMD projects because of the U.S. invasion of Iraq:
>>>Moammar Khaddafi would be starting up his centrifuges and adding to his chemical weapons depots<<<
Perhaps. It is reasonable to suggest that the U.S. cut a sweet deal with Khaddafi in exchange for his abandoning these programs. Neither the U.S. or the Libyans have ever said publicly what actually went into this arrangement. And make no mistake, Khadaffi is no friend of the U.S.

The article claims>>>Syria would still be in Lebanon<<< if the U.S. had not invaded Iraq.
This one's just wrong. The Syrians left Lebanon in 2005 after mass demonstrations in Beirut (and elsewhere) and intense unrelenting pressure from the international community in the wake of the Feb. 14 assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri for which the Syrians were (IMO unfairly) blamed.

The other problem with arguing that the U.S. achieved any foreign policy successes as a result of its invasion of Iraq is that it assumes the U.S. military is a credible threat to countries in the region. It is not a credible threat to any country in the region.
The U.S. military is in over its head in Iraq. The U.S. military controls the ground under its feet in Iraq and that's it. In fact, I (and others) would argue that the U.S. is not so much an occupying force in Iraq but rather just one of the players in Iraq.
It has no answer to the insurgency in Iraq, an insurgency the US military describes as increasingly deadly and sophisticated. It can not stop the simmering civil war there. It can not stop the militias or the banditry. It can not secure the Iraqi borders. It can not secure vast areas of Iraq. By all accounts the U.S. is short some 50,000 to 200,000 troops at least in Iraq. Any military historian will tell you that trying to occupy a hostile country the size of Iraq in a hostile region requires at least 3-400,000 troops.
To top it all off, Baghdad itself, the county's capital city for god's sake, is and is repeatedly cut off from the rest of the country by insurgents. Quite often the only way in or out of Baghdad is by air transport.


The idea that there was ever a terrorist connection somewhere in Iraq is wrong. The article claims:>>>Moreover, the American military took the war against radical Islam right to its heart in the ancient caliphate<<<
This is pure historical and cultural ignorance. Iraq has never been the heart of radical Islam. There is no evidence of this. Iraqi Islam was and is largely moderate. The Iraqi people never harbored any terrorists. There is no proof of this. Saddam had nothing to do with 911. Bush himself said so. Anybody that studies this issue knows that the ''hotbeds'' of terrorism in the region are Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Syria with its huge arsenal of WMDs which is why so many of us were shaking our head when the U.S. invaded Iraq.

The idea that Al-Qaeda is so inept and disorganized that it couldn't simultaneously cause trouble in Iraq and continue to target the U.S. is false. According to various U.S. officials and reports Al-Qaeda is well led, has a global reach and possesses large quantities of cash, materiel, and manpower. For the invasion of Iraq to be justified on the grounds that it was a terror threat, Iraq should have been the major player in the terror game. It wasn't; not even close.


Spare me the sanctimony of the ''how great we are for getting rid of Saddam'' argument.
The U.S. created Saddam. The U.S. funded Saddam. The U.S. coddled Saddam all through the 70's and 80's. The U.S. betrayed Saddam when it gave him the go-ahead to invade Kuwait in 1990-91 and then turned around and attacked him.

Spare me the ''wonders'' of this new government in Iraq. They still, after all this time, can't even decide on a Defence Minister or a Minister of the Interior. This new government is a recipe for civil war not civil order. The Shia and the Sunni and the Kurds hate each other.
What has this government got to do with the violent chaos on the ground? Hello? Iraq is violent chaos. It is nowhere near a democracy of any kind not even a nascent democracy. What has the creation of this ''government'' changed on the ground? What has the creation of this ''government'' got to do with the reality on the ground? Waht has this governemnt got to rule over? Answer? Nothing.
Car bombs, roadside bombs, IEDs, banditry, gangs, gang lands, militias, militias with their own prisons and courts, death squads acting 'within the structures' of the interior ministry, a burgeoning civil war, unguarded open borders with hostile and otherwise unfriendly nations, broken down hospitals and health care in general, 1-4 hours of power a day if you're lucky, a corrupt and incompetent '' reconstruction'' program, vast swathes of the country contaminated and irradiated by depleted uranium and god knows what else, a decreasing rate of population growth, a corrupt and inadequate police and military, and an all too often hostile occupying U.S. force whose soldiers fire in all directions into civilians whenever a bomb goes off or they are attacked. I assure you Haditha is not an isolated case. These are the realities of Iraq. Not some pie in the sky newly formed incomplete government.
- Let's not forget the minimum figure of 100,00 dead Iraqis at the hands of the U.S. either directly through gunfire and bombs or through other violence related to the occupation. The U.S. as the occupying power is solely responsible for the well being of the citizens of Iraq. There's no passing the buck on this one.

- Collapse -
echo2 this is charlie2 INCOMING
May 29, 2006 1:11PM PDT

hold fast

- Collapse -
Hi Woods-Hick
May 29, 2006 1:48PM PDT

Thanks for the heads-up! I know this forum well. I am expecting a number of ad-hominems but that just seems to be the price of doing business here in this forum.
It just shows that my opponents have no arguments and no facts to rebut me with. It's an age old tactic employed by those with nothing substantial to say.

All the best!

- Collapse -
and when you post the old lies
May 29, 2006 1:56PM PDT

what do you expect

- Collapse -
Well Mark if they're lies why don't you
May 29, 2006 2:04PM PDT

disprove them. If they're lies you should ahve all kinds of sources and evidence to set me straight on the issue.

Let's take the U.S. suppport for Saddam Hussein. Are you trying to deny that the U.S.. princpally Reagan and Dole and co. did not fund and support and give sweet agricultural and other deals to Sadam Hussein?
If so what is your evidence?

- Collapse -
unreal were in a war
May 29, 2006 2:19PM PDT

because ot what saddam and his ilk had wmds
and dont say he didnt ask the gassed kurds, and the un and other countries for the bans

and how many times was saddam asked to comply?

you 4 get that dont you
12 yrs of the un kissing ***
12 yrs to move the wmds
12 yrs of german and russia in his pocket

- Collapse -
First even if Saddam had WMDs
May 29, 2006 2:55PM PDT

and we know he did not, where is the proof that

1) He could use them and

2) he planned to use them?

You say he had WMDs - Prove it.

Second, other countries in the region actually had and have WMDs. Why not invade them?
My god Iran actually has a real and active and productive nuclear program that was far more advanced than anything Saddam had in 2003. Why not invade the real threat-Iran?

Saddam didn't gas the Kurds. A U.S. war college study proved that years ago.

Who cares how many times he was asked to comply? How many times has Israel not complied with UN commands. How many times has the US made sure the UN never got to issue Israel any commands? How many other countries have failed to comply with the UN?

Do you have any evidence that Saddam moved the WMDs keeping in mind of course that UN inspectors believed after their inspections that most if not all of Saddam's WMDs had been destroyed either in the First Gulf War or by the inspectors themselves.

So what if the French and Russians were in Saddam's pocket. So were the French, Czechs, Germans and the U.S. What's your point?

- Collapse -
see when you tell your lies
May 29, 2006 11:22PM PDT

you wind up beleaveing them how sad.


(Saddam didn't gas the Kurds. A U.S. war college study proved that years ago)you dont really beleave that ? if you do how sadSad

and why was the un and all the memebrs so sure he had hmmm all were wrongHappy 12 yrs to comply with un demands plenty of time to remove.

and when was the last time israel attacked or killed unprevoked?
oh yea they attacked all those insignifican arabic countries mean bad israelSad sourounded by peace loveing arabs who threaten to wipe them off the map yes mean jes Happy


and inspectors destroyed weapons? then i ask why was saddam so intent of forceing the inspectors to leave and not search certain areas?
i know he had a UFO was afraid they steal it.

get real and wake up your misplaced loyalty biased you

- Collapse -
Tell me Mark. What proof do you have that
May 30, 2006 5:52AM PDT

the US Army War College Study is wrong?
What proof do you have that that Saddam gassed the Kurds at Halbja?

The UN and all its members don't count. Bush's own CIA told him that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.
The weapons inspectors who were actually there Mark (unlike you) said he had no WMDs.

12 years to comply how? The weapons inspectors concluded he had no WMDs. They said most had been destroyed in Gulf War 1 and the rest by the inspectors themselves.
As for complying with UN resolutions Mark, how many UN resolutions against Israel have been blocked by the US? Answer? Tons. Here's one:
On Saturday, 15 December 2001, the United States vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution that would have allowed international observers to deploy in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Prove Saddam had WMDs Mark.
When was the last time Israel killed or attacked unprovoked Mark?
Well the last time the US attacked and killed unprovoked was when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

The last time Israel killed or attacked unprovoked?
Let's start with your own State Department which said that Israel's record of human rights in the West Bank and Gaza was poor:
The State Department's ''Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2000: Occupied Territories'' (February 2001)
From that report (from Media Monitors Network:
Israeli security forces committed numerous serious human rights abuses during the year.... Since the violence began, [September 2000] Israeli security units often used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators. Israeli security forces sometimes exceeded their rules of engagement, which provide that live fire is only to be used when the lives of soldiers, police, or civilians are in imminent danger. ...Israeli security forces abused Palestinians in detention suspected of security offenses. ... There were numerous credible allegations that police beat persons in detention. Three Palestinian prisoners died in Israeli custody under ambiguous circumstances during the year. Prison conditions are poor. Prolonged detention, limits on due process, and infringements on privacy rights remained problems. Israeli security forces sometimes impeded the provision of medical assistance to Palestinian civilians. Israeli security forces destroyed Palestinian-owned agricultural land. Israeli authorities censored Palestinian publications, placed limits on freedom of assembly, and restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians.

The Association of Civil Rights in Israel - an Israeli group - put out their report- The State of Human Rights in Israel 2 0 0 3 which is a damning catalogue of Israeli atrocities.
Regarding Human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories the report said:
We decided this year to turn our attention to these abuses that have become a day-to-day reality in the Occupied Territories. Most of the abuses occur not as a result of operational necessity on the part of the IDF, but from vindictiveness on the part of the soldiers, who receive implicit approval to denigrate the dignity, life and liberty of innocent Palestinian civilians.

The military prosecutor stated that any reports or information about attacks or injury to innocent civilians is thoroughly investigated by senior officers... data supplied by the military Judge Advocate General, reveals that in reality that most of the incidents, and the majority of civilian deaths, are not investigated, and no incidents that involve death are investigated if they occur during combat.
In the section CHECKPOINTS ? ABUSE, INTIMIDATION, AND PREVENTING MEDICAL TREATEMENT the report details how Israeli forces have caused the deaths of civilians at checkpoints by making it impossible to get through the check points to access medical care:

-Rawan Harizat, a four day old baby from Hebron who died on 14.10.02, after IDF soldiers delayed her evacuation to the hospital.

-Azzam Alawana, an individual suffering from heart disease from the village of Azmut died on 8.12.02, after medical staff was unable to negotiate the ditch blocking access to the village in time to save her.

-A chemist from the village of Salam felt pains in his chest and had to go by foot across the fields surrounding his village to reach the road where the ambulance was waiting for him. He died before reaching his destination.

-A pregnant woman tried to reach the road from the village of Azmut but soldiers blocked her way and she was forced to give birth on the spot. The baby did not survive.

-Muhammed Mahmud el Masimi from the Balata refugee camp, suffered a heart attack during an IDF search of his home on 24.2.03, and died after soldiers delayed his access to medical treatment.

This is just a small sample of the report Mark. Follow the link I gave you and read the whole thing sometime.

Israeli soldiers intentionally shoot Human Rights workers, one while he was trying to protect children. They shot a British cameraman who was filming human rights abuses by Israelis in the occupied territories. A military expert testified that the Israeli shooting was "calculated, cold-blooded murder".

Amnesty International says Israel kills Palestinian children intentionally

Mark there are many examples of Israel attacking and killing unprovoked as well as a mass of evidence that Israel violates basic Human Rights.

As for the Arab Israeli wars,let's not forget that there's a good argument to be made that Israel took the Palestinain land away from the Palestinians. It wasn't like the Arabs just woke up one day and decided to attack Israel. The Arabs had a good case that the Israelis stole Palestinian land. That land was Palestinian before the Jewish immigrants started arriving in the 20's.

Who could blame Saddam for not co-operating with UN inspectors? How would you like it if you were forced to let strangers into your house for years and let them rummage around your belongings every day all day.
Something tells me you would resist too Mark.

As for misplaced loyalties Mark, let's be clear here, I am the one with the facts and the data and the sources - Not You.

- Collapse -
and just because you post an fictional essay
May 30, 2006 6:17AM PDT

doesn't make you an author.
why don't you get on a plane go over to Iraq and ask the remaining Kurds.
wait that may put you in danger we wouldn't want you to put your beliefs in jeopardy now would we.
and wheres your proof that they were destroyed the wmd.
oh wait you take the uns say soSad the same un that was in Saddam's pocket i mean Russia Germany paid Saddam off the books.
fine you believe them shows your head set

and when did Israel attack 6 countries?
wait they did after the brave"peace: loving Arabs sneak attacked them sound familiar (japans sneak attack)

and as to the palistanians dig up the basterd arafat ask him why when isral offer them land for peace he said no!
allso ask the arabs why they dont take in the "peacefull palistines, since there just homeless people never had a land to begin with

and again you lie but if that makes you feel good about your inferior self as israel never did atrocities your thinking of you kinfolk the extremists those"peacefull" muslums there the people beheading there captives!


and just one more thing when your enemy hides behind civillians whose fault is it when they get hurt!


you should realyy think.

and you sound like charlie he wanted us to show respect for arafat when he died.
i offered to piss on his grave .
get off your anti semantic stick it dosnt fly here

- Collapse -
Fictional essay Mark? Prove it.
May 30, 2006 6:55AM PDT

I repeat- Prove it.

Ask the remaining Kurds what mark? The US Army War College Study shows there was no gassing of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein. Get over it.

Me in danger? My beliefs in jeopardy? Any idea what you're talking about Mark?

My proof that Saddam's WMDs were destroyed? The words of the UN inspectors and the fact there was no trace of them found anywhere in Iraq or elsewhere. The burden of proof is on you to prove he still had any WMDs.
And, as I keep saying, even if he did have them you still have no basis for attacking Iraq. Why? Because you have top prove he was going to use them and that he could use them.

Yes Saddam had the UN in its pocket. Indeed, Saddam had the US Germany, Russia, France, the Czech Republic, Poland and other countries in his pocket. What's your point?

Israel never attacked six countries Mark. Israel commits crimes against humanity every day.
The US attacked Iraq unprovoked. Why didn't it attack Syria. Syria actually has WMDs.

The Arabs attacked Israel because they feel Israel stole Palestinian land. I think they have a case.

Hate to be the one to tell you this Mark but Arafat had good reason to reject that deal. First who likes being pushed into a deal? Clinton was putting enormous pressure on Arafat to sign a deal quickly. Who would want to negotiate to get their land back? Clinton was clearly on Barak's side. That ''deal'' gave Israel control over Palestinian air space and the Palestinians a state broken up into unconnected pieces. Barak reneged on his commitment to transfer the three Jerusalem villages to the Palestinians. Palestine was denied any sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem. Who would settle for that deal
Mark? You? I think not.

When are you going to get angry about the Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands Mark?

Mark when you use civilians as human shields you bear sole responsibility for their deaths and injuries.

Why should the Arabs solve the Israeli problem of Palestinian refugees. The Israelis are the reason there are Palestinian refugees in the first place. It's Israel's responsibility to take care of them. It's not proper for Arab countries to foot the bill for Israel's crimes against humanity.

Mark I really don't care about Arafat or whether you should pay any respect to him.

Calling me Anti-Semitic is a lazy dodge Mark. If you're trying to move opinion by playing an emotional card like calling me Anti-Semitic, I assure you it won't work.
Besides you have yet to prove that I am wrong about anything I have said about Israel.

BTW Mark I do a lot of Counter-Missionary work. I regularly defend Jewish texts against Christian claims.
Does that make me Anti-Semitic Mark?

- Collapse -
your lies say it all
May 30, 2006 6:58AM PDT

your retoric says it loudly
i dont prove myself to people like you
all your kind do is come into a forum disrupt it try to flame all threads
ive said my piece and thats tlw on it

i was asked not to call people like you trolls but when the shoe fits Happy

- Collapse -
if you must perform a daily "anti-israel ritual"
May 30, 2006 6:28AM PDT

would it be asking too much that you start a new thread...

...

- Collapse -
The problem Jonah is I don't do a "daily"
May 30, 2006 7:21AM PDT

anti-Israel ritual and you know it. So why say it?
You can't prove I do a "daily" anti-Israel ritual so why say it?
Unfounded allegations do nothing for your credibility Jonah.

Second, I am not engaged in an anti-Israel rant. Why? 1) Because what I am saying is based on facts.

2) Speaking critically of Israel on one or two counts is not an anti-Israeli rant.

3) Israel is not perfect or infallible. Period. That means it makes mistakes and commits atrocities and crimes against humanity like most other nations, No news there.

4) I am permitted to voice my opinion on any topic without being personally insulted. Yes calling my activities anti-Israeli is an insult. Saying I do it "daily" is a false accusation against me.

If you can't comment substantively on my posts then why comment at all Jonah?

- Collapse -
You have the facts?
May 30, 2006 7:01AM PDT

You would not post the facts if it hit you squarely on the face. Your bias is all to apparent. It is you who needs to study history before posting all this propoganda from some PLO website.

- Collapse -
It seems I am having no luck getting an honest debate
May 30, 2006 7:48AM PDT

here with any of you forum members who say I don't have the facts. I repeat-If I don't have the facts If I'm just making it all up then PROVE IT.

hh if you're so sure I'm posting empty propaganda then you should be the first one to jump in there with me and show me where I'm wrong.

You don't seem to realize that empty allegations are the stuff of propaganda and bias.

- Collapse -
One fact
May 30, 2006 7:54AM PDT

Aren't you the one who just posted not long ago today that Saddam NEVER killed the Kurds with gas and told us to prove he did? I thought this was proven long ago when the mass graves and bodies were discovered LONG before we ever showed up in Iraq. I seem to recall something, possibly I'm mistaken, that some UN team actually discovered this atrocity.

Can you actually prove Saddam was/is innocent of those deaths?

We won't discuss yet all the deaths of his own people that he was personally involved in, along with his sons and his army. Genocide all by itself has been reason enough for us to get involved with other countries, so why not Iraq?

TONI

- Collapse -
P.S.
May 30, 2006 7:11AM PDT

Your sources are interestingly exactly the same ones as another anti-israel poster that used to be here and that has not posted under their original name in a long while....Hmmmm!

- Collapse -
Are you suggesting that
May 30, 2006 7:13AM PDT

anti-semites also have MPD?