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General discussion

LN46A650 - New Owner - Game Mode - Firmware Questions

Jan 30, 2009 6:00AM PST

Hello to all,

I am a new owner of the LN46A650 & have a couple of questions/concerns regarding some of it's features.

First off, I'm a big gamer & found it awfully strange that there is no way to adjust the basic picture settings of Game Mode. I can understand if advanced features like AMP are not changeable, but the picture is WAY too sharp, over saturated, and bright in game mode & there should be a way to change at least the backlight, contrast, brightness, sharpness, color, & tint. All Sony sets let you do this in Game Mode, and even older Samsung models allow it. Why not with the LN46A650?

Secondly, as is widely known, the set suffers from some pretty bad gaming lag when not in Game Mode...which again comes to the majority of people not liking the way that mode looks - leaving them the option to use either HDMI2 in PC mode, or a VGA connection (but we'll just focus on HDMI for the simplicity of things) which allow for picture adjustment & at the same time reduce virtually ALL lag in gaming whatsoever. (Game mode still has some notifiable lag).

Now the problem with using HDMI2/PC Mode (and again, widely known) is that it only functions correctly when a 1080p signal is being sent to the television. If it is anything under, it automatically comes out of PC mode and the significance of lag free gaming with the option for picture adjustments is completely thrown out. Now one may ask why this would be an issue for gamers & I'll tell you why. The PS3 does not scale it's 720p titles to 1080p (and the majority of titles are 720p).

So basically, there are tons of PS3 gamers out there with the LN46A650 who wish to have lag free gaming, yet cannot stand the look of the televisions Game Mode due to the fact picture adjustments are not available. One of the 2nd options for them is to use HDMI2 in PC Mode but when a non 1080p game is played - the sets PC mode automatically shuts off - again leaving the only option is to revert back to the bad looking/non adjustable Game Mode.

A firmware revision could easily change these two things. Allow basic picture quality adjustments via Game Mode and/or allow HDMI2/PC Mode to function with a 720p signal.

There are MANY, MANY people wanting these two features & feel that with them, the LNxxA650 would be THE single best LCD of 2008.

What are the chances/possibilities of these fixes being included in a near future firmware update?

Thanks for reading my long post & I hope it made sense,
Daren

Discussion is locked

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answer plz???
Feb 10, 2009 12:25PM PST

umm is there any answer yet?

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Just a quick note
Feb 11, 2009 12:00PM PST

Looking over the thread at the avsforum, someone posted this which I thought would be interesting to throw out there as a possibility to allow for more freedom.

In regards to Game Mode vs. HDMI2/PC Mode:

"It is using extra processing which is the Samsung's DNIe (Digital Natural Imaging engine) which is tailored towards gaming.

I'm surprised they don't at least have the DNIe option to be turned on or off for people to try since with it off I believe the sharpness and 'pop' colors will drop down to PC mode image look and decrease the little lag to almost none.

With this option available ps3 and wii owners won't have to worry so much since game mode works under 480p and 720p."

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Hm
Feb 16, 2009 10:18PM PST

So nothing new at all?

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Nope
Feb 17, 2009 2:32AM PST

Doesn't look like it. The only thing I really care about at this point is at the very least be able to adjust contrast, brightness, and color when in Game Mode. I think that would suit everyone just fine.

Another question I have...

Is it possible to display PSX games correctly on this set? No picture mode correctly fits and there's always a good portion of the screen cut off. It's like playing a PAL game on an NTSC set except that it's not in black & white.

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Processing...
Feb 18, 2009 6:17AM PST

Guys,

Hey, be patient already. I took an extra day to make sure I could come back with an answer that was correct rather than rushing one that was flimsy.

The Game Mode turns off all the processing, including the televisions' main processor to allow the television to focus soley on porting the incoming image directly to the television. That processor can't be turned off while other processes are turned on - therefore, it's really somewhat of an all-or-nothing situation with game mode.

What resolution is PSX sending to the television?

--HDTech

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PSX
Feb 18, 2009 8:37AM PST

If I'm not mistaken its anywhere from 256

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650 gaming issues
Feb 18, 2009 10:17AM PST

I purchased my 650 yesterday (2/17/2009) and would like to add my two cents.
Samsung_HD_Tech, thank you for your responses on this board. It is a tremendous help. I can always find something that bothers me with any electronics device, and your frank and timely responses speak very strongly for Samsung. Overall, I am very impressed with the LCD, it is better than the competition, and I can live with the ?issues.?
Issues:
(1) No processing in game mode. I understand the all-or-nothing scenario. The most nagging problem for me is brightness. Some games intentionally make it very dark for atmosphere. Occasionally, a game?s brightness must be enhanced to maintain competitiveness or to get through sections. Some games always require such adjustment. In this mode, we are forced to stumble through the darkness. It is quite regrettable that this cannot be remedied; that brightness adjustment would cause detectable lag.
(2) Triple puck effect. Games usually cannot be played with the 650?s 120hz processing. Static images (reticules, health bars, etc.) are intermittently surrounded by artifacts/distortion. More frustrating, ghost replicas of the static images jitter around. For a salient example, try Shadowrun. Instead of one circle reticule, you almost always see 3 transposed on each other and appearing to shake horizontally. This is quite distracting and, for me, utterly unplayable. The processor /algorithm must not be very efficient at interpolating the ?missing?/transistion frames as it is so severely distorting the static portions. The 120hz processing does work nicely on movies. However, if there were ever a medium that demands a solution for motion blur, it is gaming.
(3) PS3 upconversion. This was a contentious issue after the PS3?s release because many gamers were still using CRT HDTVs that only accept 1080i signals, so they are forced to use 480p. Ironically, many of those HDTVs were manufactured by Sony. In 2007, shortly after the PS3 release, Sony implied a fix was coming, but it never did. Some internet journalists investigated and discovered that (1) the 360 has a hardware scaler that is used to scale all games to highest selected rez, and (2) the PS3 has no hardware scaler. Any PS3 scaling must be processed with the cell processor. If they were to provide a firmware patch to give gamers the option to scale, it would unpredictably affect the performance of previously published games that were not tested for such a feature and processor load. This would cause crashing/freezing/poor performance and cause even more problems. The only solution Sony is willing to provide is to give developers the prerogative to embed scaling options in the game code. Such options adversely affect performance and many PS3 titles are restricted to 720p and below.

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Gaming issues....
Feb 18, 2009 12:26PM PST

Th0razine,

Thanks for your post.

1. I'm not sure, but don't either the settings in the game (or consoles) allow you to adjust gamma or brightness settings in the game itself? Granted, I'm not the gamer some of you guys are, but I've spent my countless hours playing games too, and I've always adjusted those settings from the game. (Just got an XBox - I know, a little late in the modern gaming world, no pointing and laughing). Is this functionality entirely gone with games?

2. Triple puck effect is inherent on LCDs. Every panel except LCD has scan-then-black, LCD keeps the information stagnant until new information replaces that cell. AutoMotion Plus helps reduce some of that, but of course, with game mode, AMP is disabled. These comments do help, and I think this thread - everyone involved - makes a good argument for gaming improvements.

3. So what you're saying is that the next gen scaler for the PS3 that was promised isn't going to happen because legacy games already on the market might bug out? Is there any information linked on this topic?

It seems to me that IF this is the case, the crashing and freezing and poor performance would cause more problems... with the game console, and not with the television, correct?

Exactly what resolutions are coming into the television from a PS3 then?

--HDTech

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Outgoing PS3 Signal
Feb 18, 2009 2:10PM PST

HDMI - 1080p / 1080i / 720p / 480p
Component - 1080p / 1080i / 720p / 480p / 480i
Composite & S Video - 480i

Retracting my previous statement that having brightness & contrast available in Game Mode being the best solution, I actually think that allowing HDMI2/PC Mode to accept a 720p signal and remain in PC Mode is certainly the answer. There have been several tests done that show HDMI2/PC Mode has even less lag than Game Mode itself, but it will only stay active with a 1080p signal.

Game Mode - 15-25ms
HDMI2/PC Mode - 6-15ms

Also, the user would still have access to the following:

Dynamic/Standard/Movie Modes
Backlight
Contrast
Brightness
Color Tone
Dynamic Contrast
Gamma
White Balance

Sounds like a winning solution to me. Anyone else?

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Thanks!!
Feb 18, 2009 2:19PM PST

1. Yes, many current games have brightness adjustment built in. It just makes me uncomfortable to rely on that. What if?

2. RE: Triple puck. Not sure what you mean "inherent in LCD." Perhaps I misused the term. The effect I am describing is specific to Samsung's 120hz processing mode. Most LCD TVs don't have 120hz processing, and allegedly, your competitor's 120hz processing does not have the issue. It is really peculiar- I have never seen anything like it. As you have a 360, I highly recommend that you try Shadowrun with 120hz turned on to see what I am talking about. Gears 2 does it sometimes, when you bring up the reticule. You have to really watch for it in COD:WaW.

From Cnet 950 review: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-ln46a950/4505-6482_7-33182079-2.html

?The Samsung, but not the Sony, also showed the infamous "triple puck effect" in all three of the AMP settings, where one hockey puck traveling quickly would sort of blur and break up into three pucks, and then reassemble as it slowed back down.?

3. Regarding scaling, the PS3 can up-scale PS1 games, PS2 games, and DVDs, but NOT PS3 games. This is due to the aforementioned processing issues. The PS3 is capable of sending any conventional SDTV, EDTV, and HDTV rez out, but it is restricted by the individual game. So the resolution sent out is the highest of those (1) selected in the dashboard settings which is (2) supported by the particular game. This often means 720p, unless you own an older 1080i set, then you get 480p. Brilliant, huh Sad

Old IGN coverage: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746492p2.html

But I?m not worried about that anymore, because I just spent 3 hours on my Samsung 650 and it is glorious. If you have the means, I highly recommend it. I have not yet noticed anything I can complain about in Game mode (no dark games, yet), and I am typically a contrary, nit-picky, fussy customer!

Thanks again for you supportive responses. They are greatly appreciated!

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Dark
Feb 18, 2009 2:56PM PST

In my experience the majority of games do NOT have a brightness adjustment built in.

And yes, there are times in Game Mode that the picture is so dark on some titles that you can barely see where you're going or what's around you.

I DEMAND HDMI2 in PC Mode to be able to run in 720p! The color in PC Mode is perfect for gaming - neither over or under saturated, LESS lag than Game Mode, and access to all the settings mentioned in my previous post & everyone's happy.

(j/k about the demanding... how about a really big please)

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not Dark
Feb 18, 2009 9:25PM PST

"in Game Mode that the picture is so dark on some titles that you can barely see where you're going or what's around you."

If the game console is connected via HDMI, make sure the "HDMI level" in the TV's Picture Options is set to "Normal".

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Normal
Feb 19, 2009 4:55AM PST

I already have it set at normal. Too dark. Happy

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120
Feb 18, 2009 3:07PM PST

The 120hz is not the same as the AMP feature. Besides, if I'm not mistaken - AMP is not even available in Game Mode.

Anyway, I've had no issues as stated by the above poster.

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SF59 and Samsung_HD_Tech
Feb 19, 2009 9:21AM PST

SF59
I am no expert, and you may well be right about 120hz being separate from AMP. However, please consider that
(1) Samsung refers to it as ?Auto Motion Plus 120Hz technology? [AMP]
See: http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LN40A650A1FXZA

(2) In the manual, in the TV menus, and on the website, Samsung never refers to 120hz processing apart from AMP mode.

This leads me to believe that 120hz processing is confined to AMP, which is designed for 24fps movies. Also, I realize that it cannot be selected in Game Mode. I think that is unfortunate. If it was not embedded in the other AMP processing, 120hz refresh rates could improve motion blur in FPS games.

Samsung_HD-Tech,
I would like to amend my previous post. Actually, in Game Mode, all games that I have played (except Banjo Kazooie) have been far too dark by default. Luckily, all the games I have played have brightness adjustments. I switched COD back to default brightness last night and got slaughtered because I could not see the competition sometimes. So, we 650 owners better hope that our favorite games have built in brightness sliders until Samsung provides a fix. If brightness can be adjusted in VGA mode with no lag problems, and your competitors can pull it off, I trust that Samsung can find a solution.

Thanks!

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120hz refresh rate
Feb 19, 2009 9:43AM PST

"120hz refresh rates could improve motion blur in FPS games."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most LCD panels are locked at displaying a particular resolution and response time. Any incoming signal is processed to fit the LCD's native resolution (1920x1080 for this TV) and response time (120Hz for this TV).

In other words, this TV is always displaying 120Hz, including AMP off, PC Mode and Game Mode.

Samsung_HD_Tech can clarify this if I'm incorrect.

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VGA
Feb 19, 2009 10:05AM PST

I'd much rather have HDMI2/PC Mode accept a 720p signal than to have to use VGA. That would just make another overly-priced cable I'd have to buy, bot to mention my PC is already connected to the VGA.

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The Final Solution
Feb 19, 2009 10:38AM PST

SF59,
Regarding 120hz always being on, in a way, that would make sense to me. I returned a 550 model and exchanged it for the 650. The 550 exhibited severe motion blur during games, and I have not been able to reproduce that motion blur in any mode with the 650. So, I half suspected that 120hz was always on. If you are correct, it is odd that Samsung chooses to advertise AMP processing as ?AMP 120hz?. Such terminology implies that 120hz is confined to AMP. I do hope that Samsung_HD_Tech has time to clarify this for us.

Your solution is to be able to select "PC mode" via an HDMI input and that mode would (1) accept 1080p and 720p, (2) permit brightness/contrast adjustment, (3) minimize lag, and (4) refresh at 120hz? I concur with you. That is a clever and complete solution that should be easy to implement. Let's hope that Samsung_HD_Tech is still reading this thread. Such a solution would make the 650 the premiere gaming LCD panel. And, because gamers drive this technology, that would be good for Samsung.

Samsung_HD_Tech, are you still out there, brother?

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re: the final solution
Feb 19, 2009 11:51AM PST

th0razine,

It's good to see others such as yourself posting here. The more they know what we are asking for, the more likely it is to happen. At least I hope so anyway, but we all know nothing is a guarantee.

I am also glad that we both agree on the solution. People who want to use Game Mode can still do so, and those who wish to have greater control could use HDMI2 in PC Mode.

Regarding 120Hz, the set is always displaying at 120Hz regardless if AMP is on or off. I wish I knew all the technical jargon associated with it...but I don't. I know there are discussions on the AVS forum where the exact differences between them are pointed out clearly.

Thanks again for your posts.

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I'm here....
Feb 20, 2009 8:46AM PST

Guys,

Yep, I usually don't go far. Happy

I'll be here all weekend catching up on these (and many other) posts. I've actually purchased a small coffee-maker for my desk and my mini-fridge is stocked with caffeinated drinks.

I'll address some of the PC Mode points in a bit, but wanted to real quick answer the AMP issue. AMP is our internal processor that is designed to work with 120hz upconverting. Since it is designed around the 120Hz architecture, it's only available IN 120Hz capable models. The "120hz AutoMotion Plus" designation is how we wanted to differentiate our products from other competitors. Not all 120Hz processing is equal, and since we added additional technology, naturally we wanted to champion our capabilities (and selectable flavors of Off, Low, Med and High) from "just a 120Hz panel".

I will address the rest of the points made here, and will be posting that after I get the information verified.

--HDTech

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Correct
Feb 20, 2009 8:34AM PST

DavidJ,

<i>In other words, this TV is always displaying 120Hz, including AMP off, PC Mode and Game Mode.</i>

That is correct. The panel will always, always produce a 1080p picture at 120Hz. AutoMotion Plus is in regards to the level of processing added to the picture being displayed.

Hope that clarifies a few things.

--HDTech

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Set Straight
Feb 20, 2009 2:19PM PST
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input lag tests
Feb 20, 2009 3:31PM PST

Im in the same boat as everyone else. I love the lagless PC mode while having control to the picture options but PC mode doesnt work on 720p sadly


Heres a link showing some input lag tests ive done on my LN55A950 with a 1080p sony vaio laptop. Ive tested PC MODE , GAME MODE, And another Emode
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15826054#post15826054

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Return
Feb 25, 2009 2:13PM PST

I've decided to return my 46A650 & wait until the new 2009 Samsung, Sony, and Vizio models are out. I know both the new Sony & Samsung non LED sets will look really nice, but I'm also going to be keeping my eye on the new 55" Vizio 120Hz LED LCD - which is apparently priced similarly to the current 46A650.

Sorry Samsung, but with spending this type of $$$ on a television - I want to be 100% satisfied. If the new Samsungs don't have Game Mode adjustments or PC Mode available in 720P - I'm not getting a 2009 Samsung either.

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Aw
Feb 27, 2009 4:51PM PST

That's unfortunate, but you do what you have to do Happy
I'm still holding out for answers and a possible firmware fix on the 750 to make me happy. Not too hopeful, but it's worth a shot.

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amp 120hz
Feb 27, 2009 6:35AM PST

Samsung Tech guy,

I'm having an issue where everything, no matter what the source (HD DVR via HDMI, PS3 via HDMI) looks as if it has the AMP on. What I mean is that every movie or blu-ray looks a bit odd. It has the effect of a made-for-tv movie type of look (or if anyone has ever watched Dr. Who, THAT'S how it looks). Every movie loses its cinematic film quality, but keep in mind that this is with AMP OFF.

Now ONLY when I select GAME MODE does everything look normal again. Now, this may not have to do with input lag, however, what possible signal processing could be going on that in turn affects the motion of what I'm watching?

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Blurry
Feb 27, 2009 3:42PM PST

nycest124,

I'm not quite sure what kind of processing could be causing that. Usually, everybody finds a satisfactory picture cadence with one of the four flavors of AutoMotion Plus.

Does it change between Off, Low, Med and High? If not, it may just requires a service.

Let me know.

--HDTech

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weird motion
Feb 28, 2009 2:58AM PST

Yes, there is a difference between AMP low, med, high, off. But the off still looks as if there's some kind of motion processing going on. I know that the 120hz adds frames to give it smoother motion. But it is starting to bother me. What can I do at this point?

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Let me check
Feb 28, 2009 8:01AM PST

I'll check on Monday with one of our high ranking LCD experts.

I think adjusting some of the settings may help, but perception is also a very personal thing. Something that I don't notice is something that you might, and vica-versa.

Just out of sheer curiousity, and this doesn't necessarily affect a future response, does anyone else notice this issue? Is this something that other people see also? Is it something that a service person would be able to notice if it became a service issue? I'm trying to get a feel for how to best move forward if my guru's ideas don't work.

--HDTech

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AMP "stuck" on
Feb 28, 2009 11:03AM PST

Firmware 1003.G fixed an initial bug causing the set to turn off sporadically... but also increased the AMP effect and caused it to be stuck "on" -- even when set to off.

Firmware 1003.M fixed the AMP-stuck-on bug and returned effect back to its previous levels.

I have tried a later firmware (2001.3), but I keep going back to the 1003.M firmware because I think its looks best on my setup.