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General discussion

life support to be removed because it works

Apr 25, 2006 4:48PM PDT

Houston Hospital Planning to Euthanize Patient Despite Family's Wishes
by Wesley J. Smith
April 24, 2006


LifeNews.com Note: Wesley J. Smith is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and a special consultant to the Center for Bioethics and Culture. His most recent book is the Consumer's Guide to a Brave New World.

For years I have been warning that bioethicists are getting their ducks in a row to permit them to refuse wanted life sustaining treatment that is removed because it keeps the patient alive, not because it doesn't provide medical benefit. These are value judgments, not medical determinations.

the rest of the story...
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Anyone see Soylent Green when it was just a movie?

Discussion is locked

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Not enough to go on here to offer an opinion.
Apr 25, 2006 6:05PM PDT

What is her level of brain activity if any? Who is paying for her care? What is her problem in the first place and is she suffering progressive systems failure? All of these questions are not addressed in the article.

And in Soylent Green the homeless (more or less) were being turned into food for the rest. Not a close comparison at all.

Rob

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What did you say?
Apr 25, 2006 7:53PM PDT

Not enough to make an opinion. Just what pray tell do you need to know other than the family all agrees to continue life support and the only reason to remove it is budgetary, all without the due process which was afforded to Terry Schiavo. Just seems to me that there should be a mandatory judicial review of pull the plug cases, just to make sure the wishes of family and victim are represented. Not enough to form an opinion, I've seen you form opinions on less than this Rob.

Don Erickson
Mr. California Republican

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RE: judicial review
Apr 26, 2006 3:34AM PDT

Not complaining about you opinion Don, but actually I figure the cause to protect innocent or defenseless Human life should be beyond judicial or any other review. Inocent or defenseless Human life should be protected simply because it is Human life lest (as we see everyday in the news) society begins to loose respect for Human life.

And if it weren't for caring for (and about) the sick, sometimes at the peril of the healthy we would not have leared techniques for helping overcome illnesses. Happy

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I agree with you to this extent
Apr 26, 2006 7:11AM PDT

if the person on life support left clear instruction of what to do in the event of catastrophic illness/injury those wishes should be followed, in all other cases the family has the burden of determining the fate of the affected party. The courts should oversee this process to make sure it is completed correctly.

Don Erickson
Mr. California Republican

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I can't comment on the details,
Apr 26, 2006 3:58AM PDT

because they're really obscure. But "euthanize" is an improper and offensive word. Removal from life support is NOT euthanasia, because it does not actively end the patient's life. Instead, it allows nature to take its "natural" course. Even the Catholic Church, which opposes all forms of euthanasia, has no problem with removal of "artifical means of support." The confusion (as in the Schiavo case) comes as to precisely what that term does and does not include.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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details... details...
Apr 26, 2006 4:16AM PDT

Food, water, medicine, heat, shelter, oxigen, etc. They all support life. Take any one of them away and life will end. So, should we give up and stop even tryng?

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Precisely yes, Caktus!
Apr 27, 2006 10:53PM PDT

>> Should we give up and stop even trying? <<

When there's no quality of life or hope for its return, yes!

One of the reasons for the Texas law under attack is that, thanks to medical cost-cutting, there are now a limited number of ICU hospital beds available, even in large med centers like Houston's. Having a patient with no hope of recovery taking up one of those beds that could be supporting someone with a hope of recovery is a waste of valuable societal resources. However, the hospital (which, btw, is affiliated with the Episcopal Church) has now made a deal with the family to transfer the patient to a long-term care facility in Chicago. The problem turns out to be that there's no long-term care facility in the Houston area that could take the patient, and so for their own convenience the family was insisting she stay at St. Luke's, "because we can pay for it." See above for why that's a bad, selfish approach -- and that's precisely what the Texas law is intended to prevent. Before that law, as long as the family or insurance company paid the bill, there was no way to clear out a hopeless case and make room for someone who can be returned to health.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Clear out a hopeless case ...
Apr 28, 2006 2:03AM PDT

... like Haleigh's?

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RE: quality of life
Apr 28, 2006 10:04AM PDT

Who has the right to judge the quality of someone else's life? Or that some else should not have a right to live. Our Bill of Rights does not say that we have an unalienable Right to Life unless someone doesn't like it.

Texas BTW, probably has the highest rate of [killing for convenience] in the Country.

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More information
Apr 26, 2006 10:36AM PDT
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I have a problem with ''treatment deemed to be nonbeneficial
Apr 26, 2006 4:32PM PDT
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That poor little girl
Apr 26, 2006 11:10PM PDT

She's abused by her mother and then by her adoptive or foster (I'm not sure which) parents. The only reason her stepfather wanted her kept alive was so he wouldn't be charged with murder.

The people that were supposed to take care of her were the ones that put her where she is.

This is one reason I believe in abortion. I would rather she have been aborted than wind up like this.

Diana

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(NT) (NT) How do you know she was "unwanted"?
Apr 26, 2006 11:24PM PDT
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Because she was abused?
Apr 26, 2006 11:30PM PDT

And I know you were'nt addressing me.

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That's just nonsense ...
Apr 28, 2006 1:38AM PDT

... unfortunately, people abuse children for various reasons.

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Never said she was unwanted - just abused by her mother
Apr 27, 2006 2:18AM PDT

and almost beaten to death at 11.

Diana

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Your position is that ...
Apr 28, 2006 1:37AM PDT

... you support aborting "unwanted" children because it's better to never have a chance at life than risk being abused.

Not all "unwanted" children are abused. Not all abused children were "unwanted". Why should Haliegh Poutre's situation support your position on abortion?

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(NT) (NT) Why should it not?
Apr 28, 2006 3:57AM PDT
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Because of my closing statement
Apr 28, 2006 5:16AM PDT

Kill the unborn so they don't face a POSSIBILITY of abuse? Of if they've already been here for years and then suffer abuse, suggest that they might have been better off not living at all?

Some of the most loved and best cared for children start out being "unwanted". I don't know of any evidence tying "unwanted" pregnancies to future abuse of that child.

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Ironically, it may have been the Stepfather's appeal...
Apr 27, 2006 2:43PM PDT

that gave the child that little bit of extra time she needed.

If I [had] to choose I believe I'd rather be beaten half to death than be entirely dead. At least I'd have some [chance] at some sort of normalcy.

And who knows. This little girl may grow up and become one of our greatest leaders or scientests and set society on the right track.

Even though Doc's strongly urged terminating as the Child was reversed, turned around and hanging Himself at a time when Medical Science knew no better than to terminate [as otherwise mother and child would not survive], I'll always be greateful Mom went against the flow. I was alive then and nearly two careers later still I am alive. All because one person would not give up on life. Happy

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St. Luke's Hospital, patient family agree to move her.
Apr 27, 2006 10:58PM PDT
Move to Chicago will keep patient on life support.

>> Hoping to defuse the latest local controversy involving Texas' futile-care law, St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital agreed Thursday to transfer a severely ill heart patient to a facility in suburban Chicago.

The agreement, announced three days before the hospital planned to take Andrea Clark off life support, comes amid a growing movement to reform the Texas law, which allows hospitals to discontinue terminal patients' life-sustaining care as long as their ethics committee determines the case is futile and gives the patient's family 10 days notice to find another facility. <<

As for why this is the right thing to do, (the the "futile-care" law is a sorely needed one), see my other reply, to your "details, details" post, here. The devil is always in the details!
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(NT) (NT) Outstanding.
Apr 28, 2006 10:10AM PDT
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Not so fast :-(
Apr 28, 2006 10:30AM PDT
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Update: St. Lukes to continue her care
May 2, 2006 2:58AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Far out :)
May 2, 2006 1:53PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) And bigotry lives on :-(((
May 2, 2006 1:49PM PDT
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Patient's death shows that expensive care really WAS futile!
May 9, 2006 4:05AM PDT
Woman at center of debate over Texas' futile care law dies.

>> The woman at the center of a battle over Texas' futile care law died Sunday, five days after St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital decided to keep treating her terminal illness.

Andrea Clark, a Friendswood woman whose case attracted national attention, succumbed to complications from heart disease Sunday at 3 p.m. Two sisters, her brother and her son were at her side.

"We love her so very much much and we are going to miss her terribly," the family said in a statement. "We hope the battle we fought for our sister will bring to light and bear witness to the horrible acts committed in the name of ethics in hospitals across the state of Texas." <<

They since vowed to "continue their fight against the futile care law," then their loved one is a poster child for why such a law is needed. Thatnks to cost-cutting and managed care, we don't have scores of unused ICU beds that can be dedicated to lost causes. And that's one reason why public health officials are so concerned about a possible bird flu pandemic, as it qould quickly swamp all available health care resources.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
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No ... it shows she was ready to go.
May 9, 2006 4:07AM PDT

What do you make of Haliegh Poutre's recovery?

You better start praying you never get labeled a lost cause. Sad