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General discussion

Legislature Must Stand Up For The Definition of Marriage

Feb 10, 2004 12:27AM PST

The Following Editorial is from The Lawrence Eagle-Tribune. Sunday, February 8, 2004


OUR VIEW
Only a Legislature with enough backbone to insist that a free, democratic people are ruled by laws, not edicts from a four-person tribunal, can stop this from happening.


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A slim majority on a sharply divided court is about to force a fundamental change in the understanding of human relationships on the people of Massachusetts.
Only a Legislature with enough backbone to insist that a free, democratic people are ruled by laws, not edicts from a four-person tribunal, can stop this from happening.

We have reached a crisis point in Massachusetts on the question of same-sex marriage. The Supreme Judicial Court by a 4-3 majority ruled in November that the state constitution does not permit laws barring same-sex couples from marrying. The court issued a 180-day stay on its ruling to give the Legislature time to "take such action as it may deem appropriate."

The Senate asked the court if a Vermont-style "civil unions" bill, granting same-sex couples all the legal benefits of traditional marriage, would suffice. On Wednesday, the court, again split 4-3, said no. Only full marriage satisfies its decision.

Justice Martha B. Sosman, one of the dissenters, rightly called the majority "activist" and "dogmatic."

These four justices in the majority -- Margaret H. Marshall, John M. Greaney, Roderick L. Ireland and Judith A. Cowin -- appointed to their posts, not elected, have taken upon themselves the decision to redefine marriage for the 6 million citizens of the commonwealth. We are to have no say.

This is not democracy but tyranny. A free people must not stand idly by in the face of it.

Marriage throughout human history has been the union of one man and one woman. It is the structure through which families are formed and maintained over generations. Each of us can trace his or her lineage back through father and grandfather, mother and grandmother. We live on past our natural deaths through children, grandchildren and their descendants.

The history of human families is a history of marriages.

The sacred bond of marriage in a religious context is not the issue here. No law can force a religion to change its understanding of marriage.

The issue is whether the state has an interest in keeping civil marriage unique as a bond between a man and a woman. It surely does.

Marriage fosters the formation of stable families, the backbone of civil society. Numerous studies have shown the ill effects on society that come from a breakdown of families.

Truly, heterosexual marriage is not perfect. Many end in divorce. Childish fools like singer Britney Spears make a mockery of marriage with drunken weddings just for the "fun" of it. But heterosexual marriage is the model civil society must promote.

Marriage is not a civil rights issue, as gay marriage advocates insist. People are denied the right to marry due to the age of the parties, their relationship or the desire to marry more than one individual.

Same-sex couples should not be denied the legal benefits that accrue to heterosexual couples. They should have the right to inherit, to speak and act in the interest of an ill partner, to enter into contracts jointly and enjoy any other financial advantages. Call it a "civil union" if you will. But it is not a "marriage."

More importantly, let us remember that homosexual men and women are our fellow citizens, entitled to be treated with dignity and respect, not hatred or derision.

There is no law, no government without the consent of the governed. That principle, not same-sex marriage, is the foundation of the Massachusetts Constitution. The Legislature must stand up for the right of citizens to rule themselves.

If the court will not be swayed from the path of tyranny, the Legislature must act to give the people their voice.

The Legislature should move forward with a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of one man with one woman and let the people have their say at the ballot box. It should petition the court to stay its order until that process is complete.

When the people have exercised their democratic rights, let us all agree to abide by the result.

If we are to rewrite a definition of marriage that has existed for thousands of years, it must be by the will of the people, not four judges, that we do it.

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Copyright

Discussion is locked

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It's about time that we start to redefine the functions and powers of the court.
Feb 10, 2004 12:49AM PST

I particularly liked the quote: 'If the court will not be swayed from the path of tyranny, the Legislature must act to give the people their voice.'.

The court system is out of control, and the political process is turning into a contest over who gets to appoint the judges. Why? We all know that, at least liberal judges, have decided to ignore the law and impose their own opinions. They pretend to find constitutional law in 'emanations from penumbras'. Some conservative judges are probably trying to do the same thing. The legislative and executive branches must come up with reforms which will reign in these abuses. We are slowly moving from a representative form of government to rule by a small, unelected, privileged group.

I think the legislature and executive in Mass. should ignore this ruling until appropriate restraints are put in place.

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Re:Heres a follow up Link to your reply, Kidd
Feb 10, 2004 1:09AM PST
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Maybe they need a few more demonstrations to let them know
Feb 10, 2004 3:04AM PST

they're not off the hook.

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Re:Legislature Must Stand Up For The Definition of Marriage
Feb 10, 2004 12:55AM PST

Our legislature here in Ohio has done just that. Expect Gov. Taft.s signature soon. Of course we also expect challenges to it.

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A little poetry?
Feb 10, 2004 1:06AM PST
http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/life/poems.php?id=50895

Don't be Gay!

by David kessel

They tell us to say "no" to drugs,
To making love before
We marry and are stable.
They tell us not to smoke, chew plugs,
Nor drink too much, nor poach cable.

They tell us not to shoplift, overeat,
Nor litter, drive too fast or fudge on tests.
They tell us not to fight or cheat
Nor bother folks by being nosy pests.

They give us all this sensible advice
But one advice I bet,
you've never heard
Until today
And this advice is to the point, concise
yet,
simple:
"Don't Be Gay!"

It's logical, since mother nature
Gave you some organs so you'd procreate.
It does not matter if the Legislature
Says "Gay is legal", just be straight!

The proper organs fit each other
Like bolts and nuts, just....(more at link above)
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Re:A little poetry? Perhaps a new one
Feb 10, 2004 1:48AM PST

should be written called "Don't Be An ***"

Since some people believe that being gay is a choice, so is being an *** and most who are asses continue to be one....and yet their rights aren't in question.

TONI

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I've decided to become African-American
Feb 10, 2004 1:54AM PST

And in order to avoid the heartache that some feel comes from mixed marriages, I'll just tell my wife and daughter, "Don't be white!"

ROFL -- not

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Re:I've decided to become African-American
Feb 10, 2004 2:32AM PST

If you make that decision, don't forget to also drag along all the years of having your rights restricted as an African-American (never mind the fact that you are a human being and a US citizen and should have those rights attached automatically). Most blacks, I believe, understand and empathize with gays for that reason alone and have a higher tolerance level for 'being different' than whites. Equal under the law didn't pertain to them for far too long, and now it seems that equal under the law to include gays isn't an option for consideration to some. Amendments shouldn't have to be written to include what they were born with automatically. There is no law that says 'being different' is against the law...and yet that's exactly what some are attempting to do, including my home state of Ohio, which I'm ashamed to say. To exclude whole communities/peoples is a travesty and a tragedy in this day and age.

TONI

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Re:I've decided to become African-American
Feb 10, 2004 3:35AM PST

As one person put it in a BC discussion panel.

In response to comparing interacial marriage and gay marriage are totally different. Racially, everyone has the right to marry whomever they wish.

When it comes to gender that's a whole new ballgame.

George

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I think you missed my point
Feb 10, 2004 3:53AM PST

You cannot choose your race any more than you can choose to be straight or gay.

"Don't be gay" is just plain silly.

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So you believe, but you are wrong.
Feb 10, 2004 7:47AM PST

That is just the phrase the Gay Wrongs crowd uses to delude the simple minded.

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Sorry James, but you're kidding yourself if you believe that
Feb 10, 2004 10:20PM PST

How many people do you think would "choose" a sexual orientation that makes them the object of hatred, bigotry, ridicule and discrimination?

Do some research. Read up on the science. It is not a "choice." And BTW, homosexuality has been observed in some species of animals including seagulls and chimps -- seagulls in particular do not have the intelligence needed to make choices. They just do what instinct tells them to do.

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Actually SCIENCE shows that most homosexuality IS a choice...
Feb 11, 2004 1:55AM PST

and in the animal kingdon (of which we are a part) the so called homosexuality is a form of dominance and oppression of a weaker male--RAPE as it were.

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Re: SCIENCE shows that most homosexuality IS a choice -- nonsense!
Feb 13, 2004 12:49PM PST

Hi, Ed.

Once again, you make a bare-faced statement of "science fact" without even a hint of a link to a reputable scientific source. Modern scintific thought says no such thing; though it's not yet fully proven that most homosexuality is largely genetic, that's the way things seem to be going. BTW, I did a Yahoo search, but it's hard to find the scientific papers for all the web pages by religious groups trying to refute them...

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Josh, don"t kid yourself. There is precious little science, and even less
Feb 11, 2004 1:57AM PST

hatred, bigotry, ridicule and discrimination these days. Sure there will always be individuals who do these things, but where, for instance, is there a significant amount of discrimination? If anything, we've gone overboard to accomodate this lifestyle.

As for science. Do you know that there are a significant number of cases, 50% as I recall, where one identical twin is gay and the other is not? If there is no choice, how can this be so? The two individuals have an identical genetic makeup.

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Re:Josh, don
Feb 11, 2004 2:14AM PST
If anything, we've gone overboard to accomodate this lifestyle.

Ensuring that gay Americans have the same rights and protections as other Americans is not going overboard.

50% of identical twins are split straight/gay? That doesn't sound at all right. And no two individuals, even identical twins, are truly "identical." That would make them clones, not twins.
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No, Josh I said
Feb 11, 2004 5:59AM PST
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NT - Identical twins are clones
Feb 13, 2004 4:01AM PST

.

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Whomever they wish?
Feb 10, 2004 4:12AM PST

If you ask far too many people they will tell you that they don't think the races should mix in marriage. It wasn't so long ago that this exact conversation was had about interracial marraiges.

Why do you care if someone else has a marriage that you don't approve of?

Ballgame? Are you really thinking of this as a game?

Dan

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Re:Whomever they wish?
Feb 10, 2004 5:17AM PST

Ballgame? No, I do not think of it as a ballgame Dan. Far from it. It was part of the discussion reply I quoted from BC panel. Go to the second link I referred Kidd to. Boston Channel. click on "discussion" on the left side. Go to third page, "Fandt", third from the bottom.

Further more... I have no problem with mixed marriages. Thats their choice. A marriage between 2 males or 2 women has no re-productive benefit to society. Call it a union, if you must, but marriage, No.

Maybe as Josh says, I did'nt get the point here and probably did'nt. Geez, You are making me do an awful lot of typing here. No response necessary, I have to give this one finger a rest.

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Re:Re:Whomever they wish?
Feb 10, 2004 5:23AM PST

G:

We've had this discussion before, about "reproductive benefit." I'll ask you now what was asked then -- what about heterosexual couples who don't plan to have kids, or even sleep together, or people who are biologically incapable of reproducing? There's no "reproductive benefit" there either. It's not an argument.

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Re:Re:Re:Whomever they wish?
Feb 10, 2004 5:47AM PST

Hi Josh:

Whatever the discussion you refer to, was probably before my time on here, or, I missed it.
Sorry that my input started re-hashing it all over again. That was not my intention. So Be It.

George

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Definition of marriage?
Feb 10, 2004 6:00AM PST

***
no re-productive benefit to society
***

Is that really the way you want to define marriage? What about couples who cannot conceive or bear children? What about couples who choose not to have children? This is a distinctly odd way of defining marriage.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Dan

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Re:Definition of marriage?
Feb 10, 2004 6:43AM PST

Dan....I think its a point well taken.

Just saw the outage notice from Lee Koo... Man, I hope this discussion goes out the window with it.

I'll look on those links you just posted.

Thanks
George

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It wasn't too long ago that inter-racial marriages were illegal?
Feb 10, 2004 5:19AM PST

Where in the US did this happen, and when? Where I live, I'm not aware that this was ever illegal.

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Here.
Feb 10, 2004 6:08AM PST
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It appears that such laws were found in the southeast. I'll
Feb 10, 2004 6:51AM PST

bet they didn't exist in the North or West. Thus, they are not at all comparable to gay marriage. The two are also quite different from many cultural perspectives. Not the least is that interracial marriage is heterosexual and was not condemned in the Bible as is homosexuality.

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Re:It appears that such laws were found in the southeast. I'll
Feb 10, 2004 7:15AM PST

I suspect if you go back far enough, it was so everywhere in the US, that was part of the US before the civil war anyway.

Around the world, in the past (decades, even other centuries, not last few years) interracial marriage wasn't sanctioned in many or most of society. Alliances/affairs too place across all lines, but marriage was reserved. Sometimes even by social, policital, monetary lines, as well as nationality, race, religion.

Not any justification for it, just observing almost any prohibition on marriage partners can be found in history.

roger

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Miscegenation laws protected blacks as a race.
Feb 10, 2004 7:59AM PST

At the time the laws existed very few if any white women would have married a black man anyway, but a large number of black women would have married a white man ahead of a black man due to the increased social status it afforded her. This happened quite a bit in the North Carolina area.

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Historically worldwide it had not been just black and white issues
Feb 10, 2004 8:18AM PST

That's just our particular hangup in the US, probably descending from the slavey period of US history, and the racial prejudice and distrust that has existed since it's ending.

The mountain men trappers of the Rocky mountains fame often 'took' Indian squaws, but they were not recognized as marriages.

Europe has had plenty of times and places it forbade marriage to an entire group of people. And nobility wasn't permitted to marry beneath their rank normally.

Various religions at various times have forbidden marriage outside their own converts. And anyone that did was likely to be thrown out. And in some historical times, even suffer lost of property and threat to life if it was a state approved religion.

So it's not unique to the US or the black/white hangup here.

roger