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Kerry in PA right now live

Made the statement that the laws are in effect now that 'military should be punished for their actions', including a civilian chain of command, and is asking for Rumsfield's resignation over the crimes against the prisoners.

Wonder if he feels HE should also be punished, even late, for the crimes he committed in Viet Nam?

TONI

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I was watching too ...

In reply to: Kerry in PA right now live

... this guy makes me SICK!

But to that specific point, he was either (a) lying in 1971 or (b) guilty of war crimes. Can't have it both ways, but, as he joked to Russert, the key question is "where did all that dark hair go?"

Evie Happy

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Re: Kerry in PA right now live

In reply to: Kerry in PA right now live

Do you not think the soldiers who committed the abuses at Abu Ghraib should be punished?

The closest thing I can find to an admission of guilt for war crimes by Kerry was this statement:

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.

Of course, if you believe Kerry is lying about his war experiences then I guess you don't believe this claim either, unless you just think he's lying about the good things he did.

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I believe he lied in his testimony ...

In reply to: Re: Kerry in PA right now live

... but if you believe he was truthful then he committed war crimes. Neither explanation of that testimony bodes well for his fitness for office.

Evie Happy

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The staggering thing about this guy

In reply to: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

is that he opens his mouth and NEVER once ever considers the possibility that rational thinking people will compare his statements and demands against others to Kerry himself for doing exactly what he's complaining others have done or are doing.

I remember a statement made to me by a clinical psychologist years ago that if you want to know what your own personal faults are, think about what you are criticizing somebody else of doing. You can see your own faults much easier in other people immediately and never realize they are yours as well.

TONI

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Whenever this guy is speaking ...

In reply to: The staggering thing about this guy

... and my hubby is in another room, he just laughs at the gasps of disbelief coming from me. He used to wonder what I was talking about, now he knows. This guy is such a phony I can't believe it. I mean HE is the one that put on a 4-day infomercial about his 4-month Vietnam service -- certainly nobody can claim Bush wanted Vietnam to be the issue! And yet did you catch how he repeated the "reporting for duty" line at Cooper Union yesterday?? So much for dealing with the issues. He ranted on and on and on about Bush's failings and how he hasn't addressed or done anything good for A to Z. Didn't hear what he planned to do though.

There's some truth to what that psych said, but I think more to the point in Kerry's case is that he has created such an image for himself in his mind he cannot see how hollow it is.

Evie Happy

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Re: The staggering thing about this guy

In reply to: The staggering thing about this guy

You can see your own faults much easier in other people immediately and never realize they are yours as well.

Been saying this for years. Tell everyone that I rarely see faults in other people - that must mean that I'm almost perfect. Wink

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

In reply to: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

But are the acts that Kerry admits participating in considered war crimes? Or is it that he just personally found them objectionable?

Maybe Ed can help here.

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Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

In reply to: Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.


In His own words he admits he committed war crimes. What more do you need?
Glenda

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Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

In reply to: Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

I said what more I need. He considered those acts to be atrocities but were they legally considered war crimes? I don't know whether they were or not which is why I'm asking.

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He considered them to be

In reply to: Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

bad enough that he testified about them condemning his fellow vets for committing them....and called them all killers, Josh. He can't have his cake and eat it, too. He either lied during the testimony or he deserves to have the same nametag.

TONI

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And

In reply to: He considered them to be

if he believes that the chain of command upward includes civilians and that they should be punished for not stopping it, he should also, as an officer, be in that same chain of command upward to be punished for his actions for not stopping it and actually participating.

TONI

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Also ...

In reply to: And

... let's not forget that the investigations into the goings on at Abu Ghraib were initiated by active duty soldiers reporting to higher ups that went on up the chain. The reporting and remedy may not have been as fast as some might have liked, some may disagree as to who takes the blame and/or is punished the most harshly, but fact remains there were soldiers of conscience that chose to put a stop to what they perceived as wrongdoing. Kerry did nothing nearly righteous even if you believe he was just doing his part to stop a war he though immoral.

Evie Happy

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I've been thinking, Toni

In reply to: He considered them to be

We've known, liked and respected each other for a long time, a number of years in fact. John Kerry obviously strikes a deeply rooted nerve with you; I can tell by the fire in your posts. Maybe it's best if we both avoid getting into this topic with each other; what do you think?

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I've never considered

In reply to: I've been thinking, Toni

that you and I were having nothing but a healthy debate pro and con, Josh. I truly hope you haven't taken anything I've had to say on a personal level. Although we are on opposite sides of the Presidential issue, that doesn't affect my respect for you on a personal level. Neither one of us, fortunately, have lowered ourselves to a name-calling or attack level and I would be highly surprised and disappointed in both or either of us if it were to happen. I think friends can debate all the sides of a topic without going over that edge.

Kerry isn't worth losing a friend over, and if you feel that I shouldn't respond to any posts you make about Bush on a debating level, I'll respect your wishes (or at least try to but don't bet the bank on that lol).

TONI

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Don't worry

In reply to: I've never considered

I didn't take any of it personally and I'm not worried about losing your friendship. I'm not issuing a "DNR" request either, LOL. I try (not always successfully) not to "get into it" with people over issues that I already know are deeply held by both sides and where I know that neither side is likely to be swayed (unless I can get a few good zingers in of course). It just seems to me like this is one of those.

One thing I know we can agree on -- we both want what we think is best for the country we both love.

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Just once

In reply to: Don't worry

I would like to some no-name nobody...just a local person who has to go to a normal job every day, try to figure out how to balance the paycheck to the bills, with kids in public schools who don't get special treatment, run for President. Since all Presidents get advisors anyhow, why not put somebody in office who just depends on good old common sense for a change rather than somebody who has political friends, clout, money, etc. to make it to the top? Somebody who had to actually SURVIVE out here for a change.....

TONI

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Re: Just once

In reply to: Just once

Only if Judge Judy isn't willing to run. She's still my first choice. It's unfortunate that it's so expensive to run for high office; it makes it impossible for "regular folks" to even consider it.

I don't think John Kerry is the be-all and end-all of anything. You have to deal with the choices you have.

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Re: Just once

In reply to: Just once

Guess you kind of have to learn the ropes and make a name for yourself. A rough analogy would be starting at the top of a company instead of learning the ins and outs.

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Some of them were ...

In reply to: Re: I believe he lied in his testimony ...

... the burning of villages being the most specific. The free-fire zones are not, but my understanding is that the rules of such zones wrongly interpreted (like that you can randomly fire at anyone and anything) would certainly be.

This man is condemning atrocities at A.G. yet claims to have committed them himself. Oh yeah, those are great makings for a Commander in Chief.

Have you heard about Kerry's phone call to one of the SVFT? He didn't know the man was one of them (even though he is on the list) but continued to talk to him after the man said he was. Their major beef IS about his betrayal of them upon his return. His activities were far more than being anti-war and/or trying to get the US out and troops home. They were about a broadbased smear of all the guys that were over there. And now, of course, this phony wants to report to duty to protect America like he did back then. Of course, now it is convenient to portray himself as fighting for America back then ...

Evie Happy

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Re: Some of them were ...

In reply to: Some of them were ...

Oh yeah, those are great makings for a Commander in Chief.

Thanks, Evie. Coming from a Bush supporter that has to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.
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Nice diversion

In reply to: Re: Some of them were ...

So you admit, Kerry either flat out lied, or he committed war crimes. Gotcha.

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p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: Some of them were ...

Take a good hard look at the faces of our men and women in Iraq and other military locations when their current Commander in Chief is "in the house". I would say that when it comes to assessing his job performance you can't get a much better endorsement than that.

Three + years of real-life post 9/11 experience vs. decades old commanding a small crew in the Vietnam for four months. That is the reality of the head-to-head comparison between these two men.

Evie Happy

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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: p.s. Keep laughing

Our troops have shown just as much enthusiasm (on film) for President Clinton and every other President who has visted them.

While Bush's military service no doubt spared us the humiliation of seeing the NVA marching through downtown Birmingham, I think Kerry is quite qualified to fill the post.

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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

> Our troops have shown just as much enthusiasm (on film) for President Clinton and every other President who has visted [sic] them.

HAHAHAHA! Intentional or not, that's the best one I've heard all week/month/maybe year!

You can't possibly believe that, even if the emphasis is on the "on film" portion of the sentence. Do you remember seeing the film showing which way the Marines faced whenever President Clinton disembarked the helicopter vs. the direction they face for other Presidents?

DE

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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

My son being a Marine sure noticed;)LOL
Glenda

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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

Like DE now I'm really laughing. C'mon!

As for Kerry, during his recent Wendy's visit the Marines present didn't take too kindly to him. Think of Bush's service what you may, you don't see any groups of military or veterans reacting to him the way you do Kerry. With Kerry it is visceral in many cases, and well deserved more for his anti-war activities than whatever he may or may not have done in country.

Evie Happy

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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

...and well deserved more for his anti-war activities...

That, of course, is a matter of opinion and not fact.

I wouldn't have any idea what DE said in his post.
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Re: p.s. Keep laughing

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

Yep, the opinion of 250+ vets ... and I'll defer to that. But actually, it is not totally up to subjective opinoin. You can't wiggle out of the box regarding the 1971 Testimony (under oath mind you). Either he lied or he committed war crimes. He didn't distinguish, he painted with a broad brush while many of his "band of brothers" were in harm's way. I knew nothing about this prior to Kerry's campaign. Sickening to think his state has sent him back to the Senate so many times and he has been allowed to serve on the Intelligence committee (although I guess we can all be glad he didn't show up most of the time!).

Evie Happy

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I could be wrong....

In reply to: Re: p.s. Keep laughing

...but I believe the term he used was "atrocities" (subjective) and not "war crimes" (legal term). He has also long since backed down from those broad comments, but I guess that doesn't count.

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Re: I could be wrong....

In reply to: I could be wrong....

Josh, it really matters not what he called them. Some of the actions he has admitted to engaging in, and accused others of committing, are war crimes. He testified under oath. I suppose that doesn't matter huh? On MTP earlier this year, he came far from definitively backing down from those. He tried to laugh off the whole thing with a reference to his hair, he squirmed out a "youthful exhuberance" excuse for his choice of language, but he didn't come right out and say he and others didn't do that which he testified to be the truth. NO, it is NOT good enough for me, and certainly not for those vets, for him to back down on that now.

Evie Happy

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