kef kht-3005se or aperion 5b fusion speakers?

wow, thanks for the info, gl.

i'll show my ignorance -- i don't know what ht means.
but that's why i'm on the forum -- to learn this stuff.
it seems it would take years to filter through all of the receiver and speaker options...

i'll look into the sub's you mention, and consider what you're saying about the onkyo's.
i'd like to know what you think of the kef's -- cnet has a review of them.

please write again, i need all the help i can get.

john

never heard the KEFs. I personally believe in hand picking the speakers. Of course you would think you MUST save on a package, but IMO this is absolutely not true.

the best is to totally match all speakers. but imo its totally fine to spend the most on front 3 and sub. spend less on surrounds.

I really like the ascends, such a wide stage and great imaging. I think they are better in these regards than a lot 2k speaker pairs, but only for $350. inarticulate bass. but im sure the better models are better.

keep an eye on b-stocl SVS for good deals. Be careful how big these subs are . . . volume is very hard to predict. I like the SVS PB 12" for a sweetspot HT sub buy.

thanks gl.

by the way i figured out ht last nite (duh).
i'll take a look at the ascends. there's so much choice out
there, it's useful to have some guidance from people who aren't pushing a certain brand to sell.

john

just checked out the ascend and svs sites -- these look like exactly what i'm looking for. 340's for front, 170's for rear.

please confirm: svs pb-12 nd is the sub-woofer you are recommending?

also confirm: onkyo 805 is well-suited to this grouping of speakers?
other receivers in the ballpark ( <= $1k) that you like better?

again, appreciating the great advice!

john

cut off my previous message:

receiver ballpark <=$1k -- any others you like better/as well?

appreciated!

john

looks like i used a key combo that cuts off the message.
let's try it again, but spelled out --


receiver ballpark is less than or equal to a thousand dollars.
are there any other receivers you like as well or better?

appreciated!

john

GL = Good Luck. Its not my name. My name is John, just like yours.

Receiver spending, more or less, comes down to features you need or want. Me? I need very little:

- matrix HT lossless bitstreams for 7.1 usage
- better BM is very welcome, not a 100% deal breaker.

That's it. I think anyways. Oh, pass 1080/24. I have a dedicated theater right now, multi-row, with 159" screen, and that's all I personally need.

OTOH, other people need all kinds of stuff. What? I don't know.

I only use 2 HDMI inputs of the three. Some people demand 4. Why? I don't know.

You have to be much more specific. Much.

that sub is a sweet spot buy. You may get more bang for buck, maybe, with elemental designs or Epik but like I said they are uglier. Also, they are not as established, and will suffer more growing pains atm.

I will reiterate that you should truly understand how large the thing is.

and if you can afford it, you can always go better. whether speakers, or sub. if you don't need a 1k receiver, might as well.

speakers/sub are by far the most important purchase for audio. i give the receiver purchase a 2 out of 10 importance rating, if speakers are 10/10.

for me, its all about having enough amp. much more important to me than features. but like i said, i have a multi row theater and am trying to acheive reference levels for 8 viewers.

john;

i've basically got the new panasonic plasma, which does a lot of
upconverting, upgrading itself, a comcast hd dvr, and a ps3. all
connected hdmi.

i'm thinking i don't need the receiver to do much video handiwork,
other than pass thru on hdmi. i read that pass thru hdmi would require an additional cable for sound? and for svs, the receiver would require a dedicated sub-woofer output.

i can probably save money on the receiver to put into the speakers.

a couple more clarifying questions:

- how much would i be compromising by getting the 10" svs sub instead of the 12"?

- i'll embarass myself again: i don't know what bm means in a/v speak.

john

confusing, all of the contradictory AV language. Sometimes I swear they do it on purpose.

You're right, video pass only means no audio. What i meant is in addition to the HDMI audio, that the video can still get thru as 24fps (blurays). Now, this doesnt matter at all if your TV cannot handle 24fps natively. You should look that up. If its a 60hz tv, then don't set your PS3 for 24 fps.

the 12" is actually the better value. Sure it costs more, but those dollars are getting you more. Redesigned amp. Pretty recently actually. Also much better connectivity.

Some people have a rule of thumb that the sub should cost as much as the front three speakers for HT purposes.

There is the smaller SB version. S = sealed, and p = ported. I like sealed subs for a couple of reasons, but ported will get you more output. Many say it doesn't matter at all, just the implementation, but that's my own personal impression.

BM = bass mgmt. Yamaha receivers can only select one x-over point for all speakers designated as small. At least you can change that selected x-over, b/c Ive heard that Yam used to be 90hz across the board before.

Onkyo, you can select various point for various speakers. I think if you go Ascends, BM is not a big deal. Select 80 hz for all.

All receivers today have dedicated sub output. its low level, not amplified; any self respecting B&M (brick mortar, not bass mgmt, not bowel mvmt) subs has its own amp built in. Its different with DIY.

lastly, re cable boxes, some still dont have hdcp repeaters, and so the signal may die at the receiver. in this case run either hdmi or component directly to tv.

in fact do both, and see which looks better. fo everything else use the HDMI for sure.

Main reason to use HDMi to receiver is to access lossless audio. The only other benefit is purely for convenience. ok, video processing I suppose if you get an expensive receiver with reon, etc.

id only consider reon's expense if you watch a LOT of standard def tv.

Me? I haven't watched even a regular dvd upconverted since last year. i am exclusively, natively hi-def now, 99% of the time as 1080/24.

john;

thanks for the clarification.
i think i'll spring for the 12" sub as you suggest.
i think i can get a good deal on an onkyo 805 on ebay -- i think in the $400+ range.

can't tell you (well, i can) how much i appreciate your advice.
it seems to be well-targeting to what i'm trying to build.

with this new tv, i'm rapidly becoming an hd-only viewer myself.
i'm just hoping more people jump on this bandwagon and demand more hd content.

do you think the receiver prices will come down by much between now and the end of the year? i could get the speakers now, since the price probably won't fluctuate. a previous post said to check b-stocl
for svs values -- i'm not sure i understand -- can you tell me more?
i'd like to save some $ if possible.

john

almost forgot -- my pana. plasma can set to 48hz with the ps3 set to 1080/24. it looks fantastic! looking forward to sound that matches!

john

i'm assuming the onkyo 805 will handle
one of your conditions: matrix lossless audio for 7.1.
do you know if it does? i'm planning on a 6.1 setup and would
also like to be sure that it can play lossless audio well
in that configuration.

john

Ok. The 805 is $499 as refurbed from shoponkyo or onkyoshop or whateveritscalled. At least this gets you 1 yr warranty.

Its very heavy. Its very big. And it gets hot. Think about where you are putting this. Will it fit? Are you willing to install a fan? I don't use a fan on mine, but its in an open audio rack. And its feeding a different amp.

It can matrix lossless, no problem. I needed it to matrix BITSTREAMS, but PS3 doesn't bitstream the formats, but sends out already unpacked/decoded PCM. So even a YAmaha 663 will matrix for you.

6.1 is fine. Just tell your receiver that its only 6 speakers. Then PLiiX will be disengaged to provided mono rear. It will probably become EX as your only matrixing option. (iiX is for dual rears).

Receivers are ALWAYS being outdated. And you know what? I believe in buying outdated! I almost always do so far. Saved me way too much.

Onkyo has the best value. They have horrible customer service. Up to you. However, some people compare the 805 to the Denon 3808 or even 4308. So if your receiver is bricked, you can still buy two more for free compared to Denon prices. Its up to you.

Remember, it gets warm and its huge.

For the 3rd time, the sub is huge.

b-stock. its there in the svs homepage menu. I started posting this exact sub that I rec to you very recently. There were two. They sold both in a day. (I guess I advertise a lot for free, heh).

I appreciate your explicit appreciation. Part of my motivation in helping others is trying to be "that guy" that I desperately needed when I first started two years ago. I didn't always get a helping hand, or find the answers that I needed. It took me tremendous work, time, and learning curves to know what I know now.

In those two years, I've set up a really sweet stereo and multi row HT. I was coming from an HTIB, and got hooked. Rusty likes to call me wikipediameat or jostenpedia.

I really hope you enjoy whatever you get.

Just remember . . . JUST AS IMPORTANT AS YOUR AUDIO PURCHASES are:

- where you place your speakers (HUGE FACTOR). Speakers LOVE to be away from walls and boundaries. boundaries include ceiling, floor, anything.

-where you sit. If your ears are right at the back wall, not so cool. Wait 6.1? you must have space, good.

have fun, and gl (and no that's my name )

I really loved the Ascends for music, for the money.

However, I use PSB Images for HT, and they can crank. I just remember its 90% HT for you. Something to ponder I suppose. They are decent for music, not the stage or imaging of Ascend entry level . . . but probably better bass definition and dynamic ability.

Toughie. They won't sound quite as wide, but trust me, they kik butt for HT, for the money.

john;

i'm going to contact ascend about 340 fronts, 170 sides.
someone talked about 200se center for rear of 6.1 -- your thoughts?

also, the ascend 340 front center looks big. i have a two-shelf plus a top media stand. the tv is on top right now, but i'd like to put it on the wall. they say it's supposed to be eye-height sitting, so i really can't raise it much from where it is. where would you put the center speaker? above the tv on wall? try to make room on bottom shelf of stand? what's optimal height?

i'll try to move front sides away from wall corners (13'x30' room,
just re-measured),
but the room is fairly thin.

the only weakness cited about my tv is the way it handles film-based 1080i. seems fine to me, but it's the only thing making me want a receiver that does video well (sony str-da3400es) vs. a good receiver that doesn't (onkyo tx-sr805). lots of commentary about the 805 sparking and flaming and smoking on amazon site. don't know if i should be concerned. lots of people like it, including you.

i'm wanting to wall-mount my side & rear speakers -- anything wrong with using the ascend brackets for this?

again, this is invaluable. i'm excited about getting it hooked up and watching a great blue-ray movie or listening to an sacd!

john

The rear speaker should not cost more than your surrounds, IMO. Its the least important, IMO. Do I prefer 7.1? Absolutely. But, we are much less sensitive/aware of audio coming from behind us. Dunno. Your choice. If it means you can get better speakers up front by saving here, then that's where my vote goes. In fact, with a room as big as yours, I might even step up the sub. In fact, perhaps two subs. Dual subs is the bang for buck combination as far as evening out room modes and even response. Opposing midwall points if your room is indeed a symmetrical, closed room. And just FYI, the sealed sub is about the same price if size is an issue. You will get more bang for buck output with the bigger box I believe in this case.

By going smaller, however, you may more easily fit in the second sub in the future. Two good subs are better than one great sub, except for the singular case of extension. More output, you can always add more subs. You can never get more extension outisde of the model chosen.

OK. You are going to be my next victim of my #1 rant of all time: three identical speakers, upright. My last time posting I said this:

"Hello Ray, I'm here to throw you a curveball. I've been annoyingly ranting and raving, particularly to those with flat panels. Its just something to consider, or ponder over. IOW, I'm just trying to be helpful, and please feel free to ignore. But, here goes, paraphrasing a former post of mine:

The best is three towers in the front. Very few do this. I've been ranting and raving for a long time about this.

Now, if you have a large DLP sitting on an AV rack, you can't, and that's quite understood. If you have a flat panel mounted on the wall a few feet high, you absolutely can, and IMO absolutely should.

get a modular rack for $200, and put it anywhere you want, just not up front. Even the closet if you want. A URC (extremely reputable) RF-20 remote + blaster is only $75 last I checked. A 35 ft Mono HDMI is about $40.

By having the identical tower, you will be:

- perfectly matched as matched can be, in all speaker characteristics
- even plane of tweeters/drivers for perfect and even panning
- completely bypass horizontal lobing issues inherent in a horiz mtm design, which usually means a sweetspot at less than 20 degrees.
- horiz cabinet means vertical dispersion as opposed to horiz dispersion. Sound likes to travel along the path of least resistance (smallest dimension), so to speak.
- less stuff/mass/material in-between your speakers that would otherwise destroy stereo, or m-ch, imaging.
- better video immersion without all the lights up front
- best of all, money in the pocket

If it indeed must be horizontal, the best designs will be such as top mounted tweeter (ie B&W), WTMW (ie Revel, AV123), or coincidental (KEF).

Now, if you have only one loveseat, for 1-2 viewers, not as big of a deal, assuming you sit straight on. If you have more than one couch, my suggestions just only regarding center design will benefit you greatly.

-jostenmeat"

and then I added this:
To complete my hijack, I just wanted to add that lobing issues with horizontal MTM design are dependent on the spacing of the woofers and the x-over point.

My PSB Image center has woofers that are 180 degrees out of phase at about 20 degrees off-axis, to the best of my knowledge.

So I suppose effects can be limited, hopefully to lower freq's which we are less sensitive to, but I am under the impression that these considerations are rarely ever of primary importance.

I only recently added the matching horizontal, because I hate the idea of buying into a compromised design. However, Im not going to buy a whole new set of speakers. I cannot use the vertical tower, nor bookshelf, because my 159" screen is not acoustically transparent.

If I had a flat panel, you can bet the farm I would. FWIW.

-jostenmeat"

oh yes, lastly regarding PQ. If you are native hidef like me, you dont need any video processing. Some people do high end stuff, Lumagen, but thats like 3k, regardless. The 805's issues are with transcoding/converting of component signals to HDMI. Native HDMI inputs look pristine. My 159" pic is the most beautiful pic any of my friends or family have ever seen.

However . . . with that room size . . . I am second guessing speaker choices, and receiver choices. If hard limit on receiver is $500-600, I vote 805. If you can surpass 1k by a wee bit, I vote for an entry level receiver that has pre-outs, and just enough minimal features to please you. Add an amp. Whether a new Emotiva, or used Rotel, NAD, Outlaw, Sunfire. You don't need a 6 channel amp, or even 5 channel. Heck you can add three channel amp, or a few monoblocks such as affordable Outlaws, just for front three. You can still use the receivers amp section for whichever speakers you desire.

Im wondering if bookshelves will cut it in that room. Im really second guessing. Ascend has fantastic SQ for the money, but for HT purposes you should truly be concerned with dynamic ability and IMO the midbass. If there is one thing, video or audio, where HTs lack compared to cinemas is the midbass.

Some people get around this: to do so, you must place the subs very close to the mains. Then use a shelving filter(s) ($200?) and boost particular frequencies around 110hz, general ballpark.

99% speakers of today just cannot handle dynamic midbass. Often due to narrower speakers with smaller drivers. The narrow speaker does help with dispersion of higher freq, but OTOH it suffers from what they call step diffraction.

I know I have get tremendously technical on your azz, but better to know than not to know. Because if you are anything like me, this will never end.

Most sincerely,
jostenmeat

I forgot to mention that the Ascend brackets work perfectly well.

john;

we're wrestling with space for speakers, etc.
our room is long & thin (13'x30') with tv on one 13' wall.
one long wall is windows to backyard, the other long wall has an opening for dining room entrance, and toward the back is an open kitchen to the side. hardwood floors.

how much of a compromise would there be in putting the front
left & right speakers on the wall vs. sand-filled floor stands?
wall mounting would save us some space.

also, in reviewing recommendation w/ wife, she is very much concerned about size of front side speakers (340s) and svs subwoofer (pb12).
i know you might cringe at this suggestion, but how much of a compromise would there be in using the 170s as front left & right speakers as well as surrounds (and possibly center front)?
it would likely compromise music, but for ht, how much compromise?

john

I think your wife will be happy if you pick a sealed sub instead. Sealed subs are smaller than ported ones, comparatively. They won't shake the room quite as much, or so I guess.

check this out at $700
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

\and this brand new model, that is also wireless, but pricey at $1.3k
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15.html

compare the volume of these with the pb12. I bet these are way smaller. Thats my guess.

john;

that smaller sub looks more like the ticket for us. the wife would accept the large woofer if we could use it as a side table for one
of our living room chairs!

i think that because our room is long & thin, we'll have
to make some accommodation for space. the 340 center
would fit on the bottom shelf of our media center, but the front sides are still an issue. we've now got chairs close to each corner,
along w/ a big potted plant. we'll have to think hard about where to move things.

i'll talk to the ascend guys this week to get their feel for things.

thanks again,

john

340 on the bottom shelf sounds like a bad idea. Believe it or not, you very well might get better audio by forgetting the center channel entirely in this case. It would also be money in the pocket.

All you have to do is tell your receiver that the center is not connected. Now you will have achieved "phantom center".

Ascend speakers would be a very good choice to run phantom because of their wide stage and more precise imaging.

This works particularly well if there is one localized sweetspot viewing position. Since your room is narrow, I might presume that this could be the case.

Sound nuts? A center that close to the floor is giong to have a very hard time with all of the midbass reflections so close to the floor. These boosts are going to make it MUCH harder perceive a lot of the freq range where vocals are going to be so much more muffled. A "mickey mouse" bandaid could be to bump up the x-over point for the center. To do this, it would be helpful indeed to choose a receiver that has better bass mgmt, or more flexible- IOW not Yamaha. However, another issue with bumping up xover is that the sub will become more localizable as well.

You might consider, as I feel keep repeating myself over and over again, having the subs up front. By reducing localization issues, you may one idea throw in shelving filters that could be very helpful in a space like that. One step at a time for now. You'll see.

Also, the reflections within the cabinet itself are no good. I am dead serious that taking the center completely out of the equation could very well be MUCH superior in AQ. Obviously, you did not take my idea of moving the components elsewhere very seriously.

Been there. Done that.

An expert who knows his this stuff just said this yesterday: "It's an old fashioned concept built on cabling being directly under the 20" TV sitting right above it"

Lastly, if you love your plants, and also love better room acoustics, you might pull a fast one on your wife with these:
http://www.realtraps.com/p_planter.htm

john;

i've seen hdtv's on the wall (i want to put mine there). they have the center speaker directly under the tv, also on the wall.
once the tv is on the wall, i could mount the center on the wall below it, or possibly better yet, i could put it on top of the
media console where the tv used to be.

where is the best place to put the center speaker?
your thoughts?

john

Regardless, I would re-read it.

My opinion, or at least most of it, is explained there.

Having the center's tweeters as close to the same height as the mains is also beneficial.

The vertical orientation, the driver' orientation, immersion, physics, its all written there.

Please re-read, and we can continue from there.

john;

did print out your post -- have not re-read it yet however -- forgive
repetitions in questions.

my wife is way more receptive to the aperion line-up. their towers are much smaller, as well as the sub. and she likes the wood version.
what i'm thinking now, following your guidance as much as possible:

- put tv on wall
- use top of media stand for center speaker
(puts it roughly at same height as sides)
- get 4t or 5t towers for front
- get 4b or 5b surrounds (6.1) and mount these to wall

i talked to aperion and they said their satellites are back-ported, but that they don't push out enough bass to be an issue.

the larger size of the ascend speakers will likely produce better sound. some reviewer likened ascend to a corvette and aperion to a boxster. i translate this as more oomph from ascend, but more articulation from aperion. as this system is mostly for ht, and because of the spousal concern over size, i'm going to check out
the aperions. cnet sure likes them. aperion is near me, and i can drive down to listen to them in person. i can report back my findings after an actual listen.

john

I already said it: forget Aperions, especially for HT. Ok, maybe the towers. Maybe.

This guy just bought them, returned them, and now has Totems. All in the last week:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47462

Some choice quotes. First is from a mega-pro:

"Those 4Bs are satellite speakers. They have four inch woofers, which in those cabinets give an F3 of 120Hz. So they will sound thin and miserable without a sub. You will have to set the crossover at 120 Hz. Unless your sub is right by one of the speakers, you will be aware of the sub. You really need two subs for those with each speaker on top of the sub.

Honestly a speaker like that is not very useful. To be used properly with a sub a speaker needs an F3 of at least 80 Hz."

This is what I said, and btw "someone at a different forum" happens to be you:
'I just briefly researched these recently for someone at a different forum. They have very low sensitivity. Just an FYI. It looks like 84db for the 4b/5b and absurdly low at 82 db for the 6b.

Im sure they sound great, especially with a decent amp, but for HT reference levels I would most definitely look elsewhere unless you are going to have oodles of amp.

The other brand I think of with low sens is Totem, but 82 db is the lowest I've ever seen with modern affordable speakers."

You should also understand we are saying this for a very modest apartment room. You have a huge open space.

If you want a sexy cabinet, check these out. Kills your budget, but very recently they were selling them for around $500ish. There was a thread at AVS. They sold out pretty quickly, even with a bunch of them.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-d2-1se/products_id/69

Yep, ok found it. Was $499. You'll notice I am EVERYWHERE.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1051559

Wherever you put your center:
-closer to display is better
-as even in height as the other mains is desirable
-away from reflective surfaces, or being in free space is desirable

If you DO get bookshelves, or towers, from Internet Direct, whats so great about that is they will sell you individual speakers. Doing three identical with B/M brands is tougher, cuz they're always in pairs.

How about three bookshelves across the front, center as vertical? You really have no idea how big of a difference this can make, depending on usage and particular models.

cheers.

john;

thanks for pulling me back on track. i'm trying to reconcile what you're telling me with the cnet review of the aperions. my guess is that your level of expectation from a system is way above theirs.

i'll also work on the spousal end to see if there isn't a furniture
re-arrangement that can accommodate the ascends. i believe they are everything you say they are. i wish my room was less thin and long.
everything has to pack (at the front) into 13' of room.

i like very much the email i got from ascend -- they said that although i now don't listen to a lot of music, that might change w/ the right equipment.

i looked at onkyousa and joined their club, but i'm not seeing any deals on tx-sr805's. ebay has them for about $750 new, amazon is $650 new.

thanks for hanging in there with me. i want to make the right choice,
and keep spousal relations copacetic. i'll revisit ascend options again.

john

just checked the onkyo tx-sr805 manual.
most of the thx functions can't be used unless the system is 7.1.
the 6.1 portion is greatly reduced including not being able to use
dolby plii, pliix movie in multi-channel pcm.

john