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General discussion

Just for You Jonah

by Echo2 Apr 18, 2005 5:46AM PDT

I got this response from a Rabbi this morning. I think it's quite thoughtful quite helpful. It's not the last word, but informative nonetheless.

David
I must preface my remarks by reiterating what you say that you can find a varierty of different opinions in Judaism on most issues as you can within other religions. There are rationalists and mystics, fundamentalists and progressives. So I am going to give you a very personal answer.

Ecclesiastes asks in Chapter 3.19 what happens to animal as opposed to human souls and indeed the Torah uses the same word NEFESH for all animals and humans.
Later mystics talked about two souls, one animal common to all creatures and one higher soul common to humans only and later still some of them refined it further to 'Jewish' souls and nonJewish souls.

The idea of soul altogether is complex and Midrash talks about 5 different levels of soul. I understand 'soul' as the capacity for humans to appreciate God. so I make a clear distinction between the spiritual soul and consciousness, sensitivity, emotion etc which are all physical attributes that all creatures share to a greater or lesser extent. I believe the Torah recognizes this through its laws of consideration for animals etc.

Resurrection is altogether different. Firstly it is not certain that it literally means on earth as opposed to a resurrection within God. I can make no sense of physical resurrection any way, there are too many technical issues ( False teeth? What age? Bearded? Bodies of great rabbis burnt to a cinder etc ) so once again it is an issue of spiritual continuity and this would seem to me to apply only where there is some sort of spiritual 'connection.'
hope this helps.
Jeremy

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4 Posts
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who am i to argue with jeremy
by jonah jones Apr 18, 2005 7:56PM PDT

but in hebrew the word is "ruach" and is usually translated as spirit or breath....

FWIW, eccliastes doesn't "ask" in 3:19, he "states"...

if jeremy is one of your two rabbis, then i find it very hard to believe that he doesn't see resurrection as both a spritual and a physical possibilty...

his statement "I can make no sense of physical resurrection any way, there are too many technical issues ( False teeth? What age? Bearded? Bodies of great rabbis burnt to a cinder etc )" which btw, i would expect to hear in a juvenile sunday school, and not in a man of the faith.. might rank alongside a catholic priest telling of the virtue of "abstinence as a means of contraception" but i guess it's a case "different strokes"...

i read a long time ago that as the body and soul are partners in life, then the soul in 'heaven' will be imperfect until reunited with the body on judgement day...

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I don't know Jonah I see his point in a way
by Echo2 Apr 18, 2005 8:16PM PDT

if you're talking about a physical resurrection that is. Maybe he's being too literal. I remember my great uncle, a Catholic, was so angry about the idea of cremation. He thought, come the great day, the bodies would not be there to be reanimated, resurrected, if you will.
I like his idea of spiritual continuity/connection
My belief is it's probably going to happen on a plane somewhere between thought and mind, spirit and body. Who knows? I do know that the deeper you get into Judaic thought you go the more it seems to trend toward the metaphysical ie the Kabbala Zohar etc..
As he said there is a big divergence of opinion so I guess we'll have to work it out for ourselves.
No this was not one of my two Rabbis.They are at AskMoses.Actually, there's more than two.
Do you want his email address? jeremyrosen [jeremy@jeremyrosen.com]
You seem to disagree with every source I quote. I would be glad to hear from a source of yours.

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this may come as a shock
by jonah jones Apr 18, 2005 9:22PM PDT

but i don't have any sources, i don't feel any particular need for them, if the need arises, i go look for them...

if i disagree with you, it's with what you say and not your 'sources', it makes no difference to me whether you give your own thoughts or "quote" someone...


.

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Well I'm not sure what the point of this has all been then
by Echo2 Apr 18, 2005 9:33PM PDT

Jonah. I am only quoting sources. I give my opinion based on the sources I use. If I say Judaism holds that animals have souls,it is not an opinion of mine Jonah, it is a fact, a product of my research,my sources. The deal about animals' souls was a point of fact. How I used that fact should have been the point of the debate.

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