23 total posts
And Evie, I bring up an old Harpers article because
Mark and others continue to spread the smear and continue to raise John Kerry's name when they can't think of anything else to say. Even when it has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue posted.
(NT) Bait! But will they take it.?
... is only because the defeated Kerry continues to try to remain relevant and in the limelight with his worn out lack of ideas.
You forgot cases where
the smear campaign is extremely weak and dies before its final phase... or where it lacts factual basis and is prematurely aborted.
The fact that made the Swift Boat campaign so effective was that Kerry was unable to dodge it... he could not offer conclusive proof of its falsity.
It wasn't that he couldn't
He never really tried. He stuck to the high road and that created the impression that he was dodging the question. It very likely cost him the election.
I'm reading the Clinton autobiography right now, and in it he says that he learned that lesson early in his political career. You may not want to fight dirty, but when the other side does you have to defend yourself.
He took to the high road?!
One of the main reasons that people remembered the Swift Boat campaign so well and seem to have forgotten the attacks from Kerry's campaign, is simply that Bush timed his attacks better.
Kerry launched his smears earlier in the campaign, starting right after he got the nomination. I think he did this primarily to mobilize and gain the support of pro-Dean and pro-Nader Democrats, but he lost any influence he might have gained over moderates if he had launched them later in the election.
Bush, and Rove, simply bided their time, and attacked when it would have the greatest effect. Both sides launched smears... both sides were tied to groups running ads of a dubious nature, its just that the Republicans used them more effectively.
You acknowledge that Bush and Rove were behind the Swift Boat ads. That's a first in this forum!
Not what I said....
I said that both sides were tied to the ads... never that they were initiated by the respective political parties. It would be naive to think, though, that the parties were unaware of the upcoming attacks and, once they were out, to make full use of them.
Did Bush and Rove orchestrate the Swifties? No, not any more than Kerry's leadership orchestrated the attempted Air Guard coup or previous attacks by known liberal groups. But did they have knowledge that the smears were coming? Yup. And did they tie their own strategies to them? Probably.
Ultimately, though, it came down to Kerry's failure to defend himself, and that the moderates got sick of his whining.
Do these 2 statements say the same thing
Did Bush and Rove orchestrate the Swifties? No, not any more than Kerry's leadership orchestrated the attempted Air Guard coup or previous attacks by known liberal groups.
Did Bush and Rove orchestrate the Swifties? Yes, but not any more than Kerry's leadership orchestrated the attempted Air Guard coup or previous attacks by known liberal groups.
Two ways to say the same thing but with different ?
Not the same thing
Your first statement declares that neither campaign orchestrated the respective smears.
The second says they both did.
(NT) and the democrats fought dirtyiest
(NT) Oh I don't know, over the years they're even IMO
(NT) oik ill give you that
Your reply begs a question, Josh:
If the Swifties' allegations were scurrilous, then why didn't Sen. Kerry simply execute Standard Form 180, make all his service records public and trust that someone in the press would take the time to dig up the information that would prove the falseness of the allegations?
We'll always be left with the impression that somewhere in those records was something that would have proven the Swifties to be right - and maybe more...
I wish I had the answer, Paul
He seemed to be taking the position that the attacks were beneath response, and he may have underestimated their impact. That's all I can guess.
and till there released
and open to the people ill stand by my views of the "hero"
You don't have to be Karl Rove, Josh,...
...to know when attacks are becoming a drag on a campaign, as the Swifties' clearly became. You note that former president Clinton said the same thing, albeit in different words.
The ultimate responsibility for these actions or inactions falls on the candidate, and IMO is an accurate predictor of how that candidate might be expected to act in a crisis situation. Where you see an effort to take the high road, I see someone who froze under stress - not a desirable trait in one who would lead...
Just one wild possibility
Is that by releasing all records, while it repudiated some, most, or even all the swift boat ads, it would release something else the political machines could chew up and spit out.
Perhaps nothing that truely wrong or bad, just politically suicide?
It could have always been a bad decision of course, but it was obviously hurting bad enough that I tend to believe there was something there he didn't want released, even if it would repudiate most of the existing derogatory claims. It may not even be that bad, perhaps just a personal hangup/embarressment?
click here to email firstname.lastname@example.org
You'd think he'd have learned from watching Dukakis
who made the same fatal mistake, and also turned a lead in the polls into defeat.
-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email email@example.com
The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
Bet he was trying to protect his lead instead of trying to
win. Fatal in politics as well as in sports.
i wasnt gonna waste my time
but as you said since the man had some thing to hide, or new was true.
otherwise his records would have been opened by him for all to see.
you naysayers jumped all over bushes records, and when kerry said no to releaseing you claim were smearing kerrys name.
i say he smeared it by refuseing to release records
A 'smeqr'? Ask yourself why...
Kerry STILL refuses to sigh the SF 180.
The only "smearing" going on was by the Kerry Campaign and the Rather liberal media in their reactions to the Swift Vets.
The Swift Vets accusations were BACKED UP in most instances by Kerry's own biography and by the Boston Globe's life story as well as his "journal".
Matter of fact the Kerry Campaign had to remove some of the "glowing" AARs from his web site because they were those of Thurlow.