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General discussion

isn't this like putting Capone in charge of the FBI?

Mar 7, 2004 8:25PM PST

Discussion is locked

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How do you deal with the contradictions?
Mar 9, 2004 5:27AM PST

You're always arguing that the bible states a marriage is one man and one woman, but there are examples of polygamy.

Dan

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These occurred before the teaching about one man-one woman
Mar 9, 2004 9:19AM PST

was given. The Bible reports this, but it does not say that this was God's way. It simply describes the behaviour. Just because the Bible reports a historical incident, does not mean that the thing described is OK. For example, when Amnon raped Tamar (2 Samuel 13), that does not mean that the Bible approves of rape.

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It's good that the message can evolve over time. -nt
Mar 9, 2004 10:51PM PST

.

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There is no evolution involved, but there is something called 'progressive revelation'.
Mar 9, 2004 11:28PM PST

That means that God didn't plunk down the whole plan all at once. He did it a bit at a time. People would have been unable to grasp or comprehend the full message all at once. Paul says that in the earlier times, God exercised 'forebearance' towards His people.

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Progress is good. I wonder when it will end. -nt
Mar 9, 2004 11:41PM PST

.

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The book of Revelation is placed last in the canon. I suspect, in part, because
Mar 10, 2004 1:21AM PST

it says that the written revelation is complete. There will be no further additions.

The New Testament is based on historical accounts by witnesses and or teaching based on apostolic authority. Those sources, obviously, no longer exist, and additions to the record based on these cannot be made. Naturally, someone can claim new inspiration, but a series of tests are mandated by the Bible to test those claims. Not the least of these is that the new material cannot contradict what came before.

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Actually Dave, sexual immorality is not all that vague.
Mar 9, 2004 10:26AM PST

It turns out that the actual word in Greek was 'fornication' (porneia: Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright

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The Presbyterians put an advertisement in our local newspaper,...
Mar 8, 2004 12:37PM PST

...reaching out to disaffected Episcopalians, urging them to leave that group and join with them. I suspect that will become a growing movement too unless this abomination that fancies himself as a Bishop of the Sheep is removed.

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The Mockery Increases. Righteous Priest dismissed for refusing Gay Bishop in NH.
Mar 8, 2004 12:58PM PST

The Mockery continues, not just of Marriage, but now also of church offices. May God bless this man and his congregation who stood up for righteousness in opposition to the mockery of a church office being given to an abomination, and for standing up to that abomination's false prophet that goes before him, to ease his way.

http://gc2003.episcopalchurch.org/ens/3577_21829_ENG_HTM.htm?menu=undefined

At Sunday services at Church of the Redeemer in Rochester a group estimated at 40 people walked out to protest the dismissal of their interim priest by Bishop Douglas Theuner of New Hampshire. The Rev. Donald Wilson has publicly opposed the election and consecration of Robinson and told Theuner that he would never accept the new bishop. The church itself had recently voted 28 to 10 to oppose Robinson.

http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=859&c=21

Tactics of fear, intimidation and harassment have escalated in the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire. With scarcely 48 hours notice, the Rt. Rev. Douglas Theuner, Bishop of New Hampshire, has removed Fr. Don Wilson as interim rector at Church of the Redeemer, Rochester, summarily revoked his license to function as a priest in the diocese and appointed Canon Martha Dyner to conduct Sunday services at Redeemer. Bishop Theuner cites Fr. Wilson?s opposition to Gene Robinson?s consecration as Bishop Coadjutor of New Hampshire as justification for his actions. Although the vast majority of parishioners at Redeemer share Fr. Wilson?s convictions, the parish was not given the opportunity to discuss Bishop Theuner?s decision.

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Statment of the Bishops who object to Gene Robinson, Homosexual Episcopalian Bishop in NH.
Mar 8, 2004 1:04PM PST
http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=844&c=21


This statement was read at the Consecration by The Rt. Rev. David Bena,
Bishop Suffragan of the Diocese of Albany.


In keeping with our consecration pledge to guard the faith, we, the
undersigned bishops are registering our objection to the consecration of a
person whose "chosen lifestyle" is incompatible with Scripture and the
teaching of this church.

We endorse the assessment of the Primates of the Communion who wrote
that as a result of this consecration:

"...The future of the Communion itself will be put in jeopardy. In this case,
the ministry of this one bishop will not be recognised by most of the
Anglican world, and many provinces are likely to consider themselves to be
out of Communion with the Episcopal Church (USA). This will tear the fabric
of our Communion at its deepest level, and may lead to further division on
this and further issues as provinces have to decide in consequence
whether they can remain in communion with provinces that choose not to
break communion with the Episcopal Church (USA)."

All Christians, and bishops in particular, are called to guard the unity of the
faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God... [to grow] "to the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

It is impossible to affirm a candidate for bishop and symbol of unity whose
very consecration is dividing the whole Anglican Communion.

We also join with the Primates in re-affirming the resolutions made by the
bishops of the Anglican Communion gathered at the Lambeth Conference in
1998 on issues of human sexuality as having moral force and commanding
the respect of the Communion as its present position on these issues.
Proceeding with this consecration clearly stands at odds with that
teaching.

This consecration poses a dramatic contradiction to the historic faith and
discipline of the Church. We join with the majority of the bishops in the
Communion and will not recognize it. We also declare our grief at the
actions of those who are engaging in this schismatic act. This action is a
departure from Holy Scripture, from the clear historic teaching of the
Church, from the moral imperative of Lambeth Conference of Bishops 1998,
and from the fervent plea of the Primates of the Communion.

Signed,

William Anderson, Bishop of Caledonia
Andrew Atagotaaluk, Bishop of the Arctic
Benjamin Arreak, Suffragan Bishop of Nunavik (Arctic)
Charles Arthurson, Suffragan Bishop of Saskatchewan
Anthony Burton, Bishop of Saskatchewan
Terrence Buckle, Bishop of the Yukon
Ronald Ferris, Bishop of Algoma
Donald Harvey, Bishop of Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador
Paul Idlout, Suffragan Bishop of Keewatin and the High Arctic
Larry Robertson, Suffragan Bishop for the Western and Central Arctic

Keith Ackerman, Bishop of Quincy
James Adams, Bishop of Western Kansas
Peter Beckwith, Bishop of Springfield
David Bena, Bishop Suffragan of Albany
Robert Duncan, Bishop of Pittsburgh
Bertram Herlong, Bishop of Tennessee
Daniel Herzog, Bishop of Albany
John W. Howe, Bishop of Central Florida
Gethin Hughes, Bishop of San Diego
Jack Iker, Bishop of Fort Worth
Russell Jacobus, Bishop of Fond du Lac
Stephen Jecko, Bishop of Florida
Terence Kelshaw, Bishop of Rio Grande
John Lipscomb, Bishop of Southwest Florida
Hugo Pina-Lopez, Assisting Bishop of Central Florida
Edward Salmon, Bishop of South Carolina
John-David Schofield, Bishop of San Joaquin
Henry Scriven, Assistant Bishop of Pittsburgh
William Skilton, Bishop Suffragen of South Carolina
James Stanton, Bishop of Dallas

C. Fitzsimmons Alison, South Carolina (retired)
C. William Frey, Colorado (retired)
Philip Elder, Windward Islands (retired)
Alden Hathaway, Pittsburgh (retired)
Edward MacBurney, Quincy (retired)
Earl McArthur, West Texas (retired)
Donald Parsons, Quincy (retired)
William Wantland, Eau Clare (retired)
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The Episcopal Church of the Anti-Christ.
Mar 8, 2004 1:11PM PST
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/72003f.asp

Dr. John MacArthur is pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, a best-selling author, and host of the worldwide radio program "Grace to You." Regarding the recent steps taken by the Episcopal Church, MacArthur minces no words, saying the church is not the Church of Jesus Christ but "the church of Anti-Christ. The denomination, he says, should be shunned because of its unbiblical actions. "This is not the true Church. Their theology is aberrant, their conduct is aberrant, and they engage themselves in things that are utterly ungodly and unbiblical," MacArthur says. "I think you have to see it as the church of Anti-Christ -- and why would a believer want to be a part of the church of Anti-Christ?".... "If anybody in it [the Episcopal Church] is a true believer, they need to get out."... The day following Robinson's consecration, Anglican leaders representing more than 50 million Anglicans worldwide stated succinctly and officially they will not recognize the office or the ministry of the New Hampshire bishop. (more at link)
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The Homosexual Money Grab in the Episcopal Church.
Mar 8, 2004 1:31PM PST

The Gay Agenda which has invaded the Episcopal Church is dismissing righteous pastors from their positions and going for the Money. Here's one example of the Sheep not listening to the voice of a False Shepard who is instead a ravening wolf seeking to devour their congregation.

http://thevictoriaadvocate.com/Religion/story/1669978p-1965405c.html

" Only 60 people attended the three services at historic St.
John's Episcopal Church on Sunday, while some 180 departing members held the
first formal service of their new conservative congregation, St. Andrew's.

The split occurred when Bishop Stacy Sauls and diocesan leaders ousted the
parish's governing board and took control of the building and bank accounts worth
$1.87 million.

The St. John's board opposed Sauls' support for the consecration of openly gay
Bishop V. Gene Robinson, but the diocese said it removed the board for breaking
rules in seeking a new minister."

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At time like this, I'm glad I'm a Southern Baptist
Mar 8, 2004 10:54PM PST

We don't have bishops and church hierarchy telling us what to do.

My church has told the Southern Baptist Convention to take a flying leap but we are still Southern Baptists. The convention doesn't control the local church and we call our own preacher.

Nobody fires our preacher or takes over our funds but us. If the congregation doesn't support our budget, our budget decreases - no endowment to tap.

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That's interesting.
Mar 9, 2004 12:12AM PST

You are a Southern Baptist, and a practicing homosexual would be OK as your church's pastor? What is your church's view of the authority and inspiration of scripture? Does it see scripture as inerrant in its original form? Just curious.

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Probably not but
Mar 9, 2004 12:33AM PST

we would accept them as members and, last time we looked for a pastor, we didn't differentiate on sex. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we called a woman as our next preacher. We have one in mind.

I'd have to check if we have any homosexual ministries.

I'm just saying that their church doesn't seem to have a problem with a homosexual priest so that is OK. Having him as a bishop is tearing the whole congregation apart so he should have backed off. Keeping people in the church is more important than one man's ambition. I, also, think it's wrong that one priest is fired and another church is taken over because they disapprove.

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Re:Probably not but
Mar 9, 2004 12:51AM PST

But if one man, or a group within the church is inspired by the divine to bring change to the church, how can they not? Who is to judge the value of another's inspiration?

Dan

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Who judges the false prophets?
Mar 9, 2004 2:38AM PST

According to Christ the local congregation.

Revelation 2; 1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;
These things saith he that holdeth the seven
stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst
of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy
works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and
how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are
apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


Paul make it clear that "fornicators" and this includes homosexuals, should be cast out of a congregation by that congregation. There is no hierarchy beyond each congregation spoken of in the NT Scriptures.


I Corinthians 5;1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Some verses about false prophets;

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 15:19 - For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The word "fornication" here is an old English word taken from the original Greek word of "porneio" and substituted the "f" for the "p", but the word means the same as porno, pornography, illicit sex, and includes homosexuality in that understanding.

Matthew 24:11 -And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

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So Robinson has been judged and found true
Mar 9, 2004 2:50AM PST

by the measures of his church. They're not trying to force their selection of priests on me or anyone else, so it works for me.

Dan

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God does give you the ability to make your choice. He gives the
Mar 9, 2004 4:34AM PST

church the same opportunity. However, He does not give up His right to judge either of you. The church would be judged apostate which means it has abandoned its mission to represent and advance the Kingdom of God.

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Not me. I don't really have a horse in this race.
Mar 9, 2004 5:44AM PST

But you guys aught to get your signals clear. One guy's saying that the congregation decides, the other's saying 'yeah, but watch out anyway'. Doesn't give the impression you're ever on the right track.

Dan

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I don't agree that the congregation decides. I don't think anyone with
Mar 9, 2004 10:39AM PST

any familiarity with the New Testament would take this position. I can't speak for James, but Jesus makes it clear (in Revelation) that He rejects the decisions of local congregations when they depart from the scripture. Paul says, in effect, the same thing when he chastises the behaviour of local congregations.

Let's see if James will clarify what he said.

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Congregations
Mar 9, 2004 5:04PM PST

Scripture can not make decisions, people do. Scripture is given as a guide on how to make the proper decisions. Paul makes it clear they are given for instruction in righteousness. Therefore Scripture is the authority used, but it is people who make the decision. Bible also states some "wrest" the Scriptures to their own destruction. Nevertheless, they are the ones that made that decision, that choice.

Congregations are supposed to make decisions based on God's Word. They can be led astray by false shepards, who don't follow that Word. Just as an individual can be judged by God, so is each individual congregation judged by Christ, as seen in Revelation. It can also be seen in Acts 15:22 that the "whole church" took part in decisions.

When you read the NT, it's obvious that local congregations were making decisions on who they accepted as teachers and members, and it wasn't being forced upon them by some higher organization or hierarchy.

Of course Christ is the final authority for both individuals and congregations. He can cut off congregations that apostasize, but the decision to do so is for them to make.

What you see now with the Episcopals over this latest apostasy is local congregations starting to demand their local autonomy back from the corrupting hierarchy they submitted to. What you also see is this hierarchy trying to thwart them in those efforts. I'm expecting to see this end up in civil courts as local congregations attempt to keep their properties and monies.

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Congregations get to choose if the Bible does not have a clear position on a subject.
Mar 9, 2004 11:44PM PST

However, congregations have no right to change decisions that have already been made by God and included in the Bible. A congregation has no right to say that adultery is OK for example. They also have no right to say that an openly practicing homosexual is OK. Paul made this abundantly clear when he wrote to rebuke a church for allowing a man who was sleeping with his father's wife to continue participating in the church. If the congregation chooses to disobey the scripture, which they of course can, they come under God's judgement.

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There's no disagreement I see.
Mar 9, 2004 5:15PM PST

When there is a conflict within a religious body, someone has to make decisions. I believe each congregation has a responsibility and right to follow Christ, no matter what corrupting influence is being pushed at them. Those congregations that follow the apostasy will be cut off from Christ. Those that follow Christ, will be accepted by him.

I think you, and maybe Kiddpeat are confusing the concept of "decision" with that of "authority" when reading what I posted. The authority is from God through Christ, the Scriptures are our guide, and it's up to us to decide if we will accept that or reject it.

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But they are forcing their decision on others
Mar 10, 2004 12:58AM PST

They removed one pastor and took over another congregation and its finances. That's just the ones we know about.

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Not really
Mar 10, 2004 1:06AM PST

Those are all legitimate activities of the church in which the have chosen membership. They may not be happy about the way the church functions, but everything I've seen indicates that church procedures are being followed.

Dan

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The Bible.
Mar 9, 2004 4:25AM PST

It's not exactly a new problem for the church to have people coming up with new ideas about various things. The church has been through many of these debates. One of the key, accepted standards is what the Bible has to say about a subject both directly and indirectly. Sometimes people will argue that it doesn't mean what it says. That's what's being done with this issue. The problem, of course, is the Bible is pretty clear on this issue in both direct and indirect statements. The male/female relationship is a core teaching and is established immediately at creation.

You can't just think up a new philosophy, and begin teaching it. There is a standard by which a judgement can be made.

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A little more clarification if I can.
Mar 9, 2004 4:16AM PST

Your Southern Baptist church would accept openly, practicing homosexuals (i.e. they think the behaviour is OK) as members, and would baptise them? Perhaps you mean they would be welcome to attend? If the latter is the case, then I see what you're saying and think most churches would agree.

I understand your point on avoiding schisms, and refraining from offending a weaker brother. However, IMO, the bishop should not even be accepted as a local church pastor since his unrepentent life style is sinful.

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Yes, Congregationalist type churches are better protected against this type activity. [nt]
Mar 9, 2004 1:40AM PST

[nt]

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(NT) No
Mar 10, 2004 10:58PM PST