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Islamic Family Life in America

by James Denison / April 3, 2008 10:44 PM PDT

It's come to America, the "honor" killings. The message is don't speak to our females or we will kill them if we can't kill you. Witness the family love of Islam.

There's a film called FITNA there worth seeing, done by a Dutch person who is now targeted like Rushdie by the Islamist.

1/16/2008 - 911 audio released: This makes you sick, the audio shows that Sarah suffered until she slowly died, with her sister most likely already dead in the cab with her. This is the result of Islam, this is what an honor killing sounds like. Click here to listen to the disturbing audio.

1/5/2008 - We were outraged this morning, along with many other Americans after hearing about the honor killings of two young girls which occurred in Texas this past week. Outrage does not begin to describe the emotions felt....(more at link)

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Common Sense Opinion by an Atheist
by James Denison / April 3, 2008 11:06 PM PDT
Pat Condell in the UK.

This has already about half a million viewings. Even though I disagree with his atheistic stance, I can't help but agree with his take on Islam and how our Western culture is (isn't!) dealing properly with it.
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Why do they move here
by Diana Forum moderator / April 4, 2008 12:41 AM PDT

if they don't want to accept the culture of where they are moving? Why don't they go to where it is acceptable?


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it might just take time
by WOODS-HICK / April 4, 2008 2:17 AM PDT
In reply to: Why do they move here

many immigrants bring their 'old ways' with them. I am not condoning but I believe this is an isolated incident that has an inflammatory element. the offenders should be punished to full extent. in texas that will be very harsh and swift. I do not believe this will be accepted by future generations of muslims living in the USA.

in every 'melting-pot' there are poisonous ingredients that are purged by refining the recipe.

there was a time that many ethnic and religious differences were seen as obstacles to young couples.

italians married italians, greeks married greeks, etc.

catholic and protestant intermarriages

jewish and christian intermarriages

interracial marriage was against the law in 16 states until 1967

Anti-miscegenation laws overturned on 12 June 1967 by Loving v. Virginia
State First law passed "Races" banned from marrying whites Note
Alabama 1822 Blacks Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Arkansas 1838 Blacks Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Delaware 1721 Blacks
Florida 1832 Blacks Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Georgia 1750 All non-whites
Kentucky 1792 Blacks
Louisiana 1724 Blacks Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Mississippi 1822 Blacks, Asians Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Missouri 1835 Blacks, Asians
North Carolina 1715 Blacks, Native Americans
Oklahoma 1897 Blacks
South Carolina 1717 All non-whites Repealed during Reconstruction, law later reinstated
Tennessee 1741 Blacks, Native Americans
Texas 1837 Blacks
Virginia 1691 All non-whites Previous anti-miscegenation law made more severe by Racial Integrity Act of 1924
West Virginia 1863

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Does anyone know?
by Dan McC / April 4, 2008 10:15 PM PDT

Is this a religious practice or a cultural one?


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In whose opinion? Does it matter?
by Bill Osler / April 4, 2008 10:37 PM PDT
In reply to: Does anyone know?

As best I can tell from my reading, most orthodox Muslims (radicals or otherwise) do not think about the categories we label as 'secular', 'religious', 'cultural' and so forth in the same way that those of us from more-or-less secular Western societies do.

My impression is that, although the various notions about sharia are different in different Islamic sects and different Islamic cultures, the supporters in each case regard their version of sharia as being determined by Islamic teaching.

Speaking as a Westerner in a secular society, my guess is that the 'honor killings' and such are driven more by culture than by Islam, but I do not believe that the participants in the acts would agree with the distinction. Their goal is to create a culture in which 'cultural practices' are inextricably linked to Islam and I believe that they would argue that the 'honor killings' are a result of their commitment to Islamic values.

All of which raises a question: If the participants do not draw the distinction between religious practice and cultural practice, why should we? I recognize that there are people who describe themselves as Muslim and who disagree with the notion of 'honor killings' and such, but the participants in these affairs do not necessarily regard such people as being faithful Muslims. As a non-Muslim I won't pretend that I understand the faith well enough to be entirely sure which group comes closer to being faithful followers of Mohammed's teachings.

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From my understanding
by dirtyrich / April 4, 2008 11:05 PM PDT
In reply to: Does anyone know?

this has its roots culturally but Islam has been interpreted by prominent imams as supporting it.

Here's another recent story of the current Islamic culture's "tolerance"

and a very telling interview of a senior imam in Britain (this is actually a year or so old, but has been circulating recently)

In the end it matters not whether the violence is due to culture or religion for the two usually intertwine and influence each other. The Muslim religion has been corrupted by certain parts of Arabian culture, and most Muslims that profess peace seem to be doing little about their brothers.

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re: "doing little about their brothers"
by grimgraphix / April 5, 2008 3:56 AM PDT
In reply to: From my understanding
"most Muslims that profess peace seem to be doing little about their brothers."

I found your comment interesting in that I see a parallel event in a Christian conflict that has gone on for years. However, your comment seems to indicate that anyone who practices Islam has a responsibility to "do" something to police their fellow muslims, should those muslims be violent.

The parallel I see is this. Wars and social/cultural conflicts have occurred through out the centuries between 2 dominant Christian philosophies... those being Catholicism and Protestantism. The most immediate conflict that is still going on to some small extent has been the almost 100 year old war between the Catholics and Protestants living in Northern Ireland. Admittedly it is more than religious as it involves cultural and political divisions too. However, religion, more than anything else, is the identifying factor between the two groups.

If, as your statement seems to indicate, it is the responsibility of a Muslim to do something about their brothers... then doesn't every Christian have some responsibility to do something as well, in clashes such as that in Northern Ireland? What about other conflicts between Christian elements? Where and what is the tradition that dictates a follower of a religion is responsible for what their fellow practitioners do? We Christians don't seem to practice this tradition so why should we expect Muslims to do so?
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As a young man, Muhammad was dismayed
by drpruner / April 5, 2008 5:54 AM PDT

at the wars going on between 'brother' Arabs due only to clan or tribe differences. One of his early tenets (from whatever source) was the brotherhood of all. I was in a neutral Muslim country in the Middle East at the end of the Iran-Iraq war, and noticed that the commentators tiptoed discreetly around this issue. (Muslims in English-language papers.) I learned all this BTW by reading some of their literature in that country. Side note: Malcolm X began to have his eyes opened about the US Nation of Islam when he saw how he was treated on his Hajj. Better than in US white society (of course), and better than Elijah Muhammad's racism. And recall Benazir Bhutto- a woman, a mother, and a Muslim, killed by Muslims commanded to do 'none of the above'.

What?! Christians killing Christians?! Not possible! Many commands to the contrary in their book, as well.

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That's not religious
by James Denison / April 5, 2008 10:20 AM PDT

Religion is being used as the excuse given as if that justifies each side more than the other, but the conflict there isn't religious in nature for the most, but ethnic and regional.

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(NT) It's usually about power and who runs the country or area
by Diana Forum moderator / April 5, 2008 10:28 PM PDT
In reply to: That's not religious
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that's right
by James Denison / April 5, 2008 10:38 PM PDT

If it was religious then Catholics and Protestants would be fighting in other places too, and that's just not the case. The blame is being laid on religion there, but the truth is it's regional, ethnic, and other factors that keep it going.

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I would like to point out something.
by grimgraphix / April 5, 2008 3:20 AM PDT

Not to place any less significance on the distasteful practice of "honor killings" (and the faulty rationalized reasons for the practice)... but I want to point out that family members kill other family members all over the world for a variety of reasons.

Some Islamic cultures and some Islamic families kill their children when they think that child has disgraced their family honor.

Guess what? This happens in other cultures and other religions too. Often times it happens without any cultural or religious reasoning behind it.

Some people are ignorant and place more importance on their imagined honor than the value of their families' lives. I can pick an example of this type of behavior occurring in the US at least once a week that had nothing to do with Islam. In fact, honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. It is a cultural practice, not a religious practice. The conclusion to be made is that people don't need a reason to kill their own family members. They do it because they are selfish and more concerned about their own interests than anyone else's.

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Yes, but the difference is
by dirtyrich / April 5, 2008 6:11 AM PDT

in the US and other countries the killers would be brought to justice, not applauded by established religious courts.

Islam is the main tool being used by corrupt Arabian cultures to spread their influence. Hence, something big must happen to Islam itself for the world to be safe.

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It's on the way ...
by drpruner / April 5, 2008 8:11 AM PDT

... but you won't like it. Sad

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The other side of the killing coin:
by drpruner / April 5, 2008 6:00 AM PDT

Nominal Christians in the Balkans used the Muslim attitude toward family honor- especially in sexual matters- to make mass rape of Muslim women a weapon of war. Virtually all of the mass graves contained men killed trying to defend their sisters and mothers, who would be left alive as often as not to spread their "shame".

I don't subscribe to any philosophy that can be reduced to a bumper sticker, but I do remember one from the Vietnam War days: War is harmful to children and other living things.

I may have mentioned before that I was listening to a radio report on the Balkans back then, and the announcer said, 'You may not want to listen to this next dispatch, because it involves [Christians'] violence and children.' I'm a tough guy, so I listened.

I wish I hadn't.

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Got any proof to present on that charge?
by James Denison / April 5, 2008 10:27 AM PDT

I don't doubt isolated incidents which often occur in war happened, but you seem to be charging it was an organized movement to do so.

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Had to open another browser window to get this one.
by drpruner / April 5, 2008 6:03 AM PDT
Dirty War adoption couple jailed
"An Argentine couple are jailed for illegally adopting a baby born 30 years ago to parents killed during the Dirty War."

'Front page' on the BBC World-Americas.

How long do wars last? Don't answer until you've talked to all the survivors. Sad No doubt our highly-evolved species will soon find its own way to a war-less society.
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another non sequitur
by James Denison / April 5, 2008 10:28 AM PDT

and no link.

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Sequitur: The "dirty war" was decades ago,
by drpruner / April 6, 2008 5:53 AM PDT
In reply to: another non sequitur

yet the human suffering goes on.
More? In Viet Nam, leftover ordnance explodes every day as farmers farm and children play.
More? In France and Belgium, the same happens- with ordnance from two wars.
More? Modern medicine often saves the lives of children, as in Africa and Arabia, who lose limbs to mines especially designed to maim, not kill. Their 'wartime experience' will last the rest of their lives.

In just a few sentences I covered areas where each major religion dominates. (Remember that religious violence was the original proposition in the thread.) Though some have trouble assigning some violence to the religious area, I know of at least one person who wouldn't: "By their fruits you will know them."

Link: "'Front page' on the BBC World-Americas." That's at bbc.co.uk, to start. It may have been replaced by bigger news from Hollywood, so try their search, for "argentina" or "dirty war".

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that's a totally different subject
by James Denison / April 6, 2008 8:47 AM PDT

you posted something about a legal case over an adoption of a war baby, NOT something having to do with the results or failures to clean up battlefield areas properly, that's why it's a "non sequitur", because it doesn't logically follow the main subject you introduced and has little bearing on on it other than both involved some connection to war.

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Why Am I Not Surprised in the Least Bit!?
by Waldorf PC / April 6, 2008 12:24 AM PDT

What i'm about to say will be very offensive. I can't sugar code this. There is only one way to say what I'm about to say.

Yeah, Islam is a messed up religion. I'm sorry if I offended anyone: but, look at how they treat women. i mean, they are so crazy that they took two mentally challenged women, who suffered from Downs, and planted bombs on them. they sent them to the market place to shop, and the bombs blew and they died killing many others along with them. Perhaps, some of you remember this.

Women are treated like sex objects. I can cite many, many articles, websites, and written works that will go into explicit detail about how women suffered, and even died, because of such treatment. Women are human also: but, these idiots fail to realize this. To them, women are disposable, as they only have two purposes--sex toys and baby makers. Oh, i forgot to mention a third--they are house slaves. While i do live by the old gender roles--men and women having their place--I do not, in any way shape or form condone treating another human being like this.

If these crazies want to hunt me for saying all of this and speaking against their crazy messed up religion, fine! Bring it on. I'm all for dying for exposing idiots like these. I've not been one for liking to keep wrongdoing secret. I'll educate everyone I can so they can seek justice and not get tied up in such stuff. And, i'll be darned if i waste a good towel to wear on my face to cover my features just because I'm a woman. And, horay, to the Dutchman who is making these videos. Maybe, I'll folow suit. They'll have thee reasons for killing me. i'm half Dutch. They hate the Dutch as it is, as people of the Netherlands except everyone the same--men, women, and gays. There is no separation. Everyone has the same rights. I'm a woman. And, I speak against their stupidity.

Any religion that condones this type of behavior, in my opinion, is no religion at all. I've seen in the Koran somewhere that all who are not Muslim will die and the killers are to be rewarded immensely. I don't remember where it said it: but, I do have a copy of the Koran. I'll look through it and come back to this later.

I have many religious works, as I studied many religions on a quest to find God.

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The quest for God:
by drpruner / April 6, 2008 6:24 AM PDT

"... for [men] to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us."

From a speech recorded in Acts 17:22-31; one of the few bible passages actually addressed to pagans, BTW.

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God is closer than you think.
by James Denison / April 6, 2008 8:50 AM PDT
In reply to: The quest for God:

I was baptized by the Jehovah witnesses in 1970. I believed in God but I didn't believe that Jesus Christ was God. I believed Jesus Christ was a god created by the true God. I didn't believe in life after death much less that there was a conscious spirit that would leave the body when one died. I didn't believe in any kind of miracle healing nor I believed that God would communicate with people through visions or dreams. I believed that all kind of healing, miracles and visions were the work of the devil. I was very loyal to these Jehovah Witness teachings, and nobody could convince me of the contrary.

On September 12, 1973 I was ready to have a C-section done. While I was on the operation table I could see how the doctors and nurses were getting ready to do their job and they were kind of painting my abdomen with an orange liquid. I was concerned about it and asked what were they doing. The doctor explained to me that they were doing this before the anesthesia since they had to apply the anesthesia and start cutting right away to avoid the baby to be sedated.

They started injecting me the anesthesia and I felt a strange sensation. My body got stiffed, but my mind stayed awake. I realized they were going to cut my abdomen and I was not asleep. I tried to move and scream in desperation but all efforts were in vain. I started feeling a terrible pain while they were cutting my abdomen. All of a sudden in the middle of my pain I heard an audible voice saying; "Look what is going to happen to you!"
In that instant I was pulled out of my body with a sudden swoosh....(rest at link)
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(NT) Now THAT'S irrelevant, even to the subthread.
by drpruner / April 6, 2008 12:29 PM PDT
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I'm Not sure Where You Are going With This Passage
by Waldorf PC / April 7, 2008 9:46 AM PDT
In reply to: The quest for God:

but, i will say that I will help anyone come to God. anyone. However, i am, again, against how this religion tells people to treat others who are not their followers or people who are inocent.

And, to be honest with you, if people really followed the Bible, they'd not kill in the name of God or go to war against others that are not of their persuasion just to convert them. I do not condone that at all either, as that is not how Jesus did things. Matthew 26:52 says that anyone who takes the sword dies by the sword. Yes, I know that Christians did some horrible things: however, nothing matches Islam, and I mean NOTHING!

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by Dan McC / April 10, 2008 9:35 AM PDT

God never told anyone to kill in the bible?


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(NT) Only the Irish, McC. :-)
by drpruner / April 11, 2008 7:50 AM PDT
In reply to: Ummm...
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(NT) What the hell does that mean???
by Dan McC / April 12, 2008 4:16 AM PDT
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As in, 'Single out only the Irish.'
by drpruner / April 12, 2008 6:01 AM PDT

As in Blazing Saddles, when the Black sheriff talks the townsfolk into helping him rescue some people, but they say, "OK, but we won't take the Irish!"

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You're going for funny?
by Dan McC / April 12, 2008 8:59 AM PDT

Is that it?

I have no idea how your attempt at explanation applies to what you posted.


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