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Islam, Message of Peace

by James Denison / April 2, 2011 12:42 PM PDT

Or any excuse to murder? I don't care if someone burned a thousand Korans, if a thousand people gathered to curse the name of Mohammed, or any other such peaceful expression of their rejection of Islam, that is no excuse for what happened to these people who were murdered.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/04/02/workers-hid-escape-afghan-protestors/

Fearing for their lives, the U.N. workers dashed into a dark bunker hoping to escape the mob of Afghan protesters angry over the burning of a Koran by a Florida church.

They were identified by officials in their home countries as: Joakim Dungel, a 33-year-old Swede who worked on human rights; Lt. Col. Siri Skare, a 53-year-old female pilot from Norway who was an adviser; and Filaret Motco, a 43-year-old Romanian who worked in the political section of the U.N.

Four of the Nepalese guards were killed; some shot in the yard of the compound. Three Afghan U.N. workers survived by melding into the surging crowd, he said. Four Afghan protesters also were killed in the riot.

President Hamid Karzai publicly condemned the March 20 Koran burning, leading some to blame him for triggering the protests. De Mistura, however, blamed the person who torched the holy book.

The pastor, the Rev. Terry Jones, had threatened to destroy a copy of Islam's holy book last year but initially backed down. On Friday he said Islam and its followers, not his church's burning of the Koran, were responsible for the killings. (more in article)

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Wrong to murder...
by JP Bill / April 2, 2011 12:57 PM PDT

Can you give an explanation for burning a Koran?

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Not when there are better uses for waste paper
by James Denison / April 2, 2011 1:01 PM PDT
In reply to: Wrong to murder...

Although in the winter it might run a second best to burning newspaper rolls in the woodstove for some extra heat. I'll be glad when it's just an anachronism from the past that few care to even bother with anymore.

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Since he seems to feel strongly
by JP Bill / April 2, 2011 1:06 PM PDT

about expressing his feelings about the Koran...He should go to Afghanistan...and then no "Innocent people" would be murdered.

I read some of his congregation (such as it was) have abandoned him.

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he might be murdered
by James Denison / April 2, 2011 2:12 PM PDT

And what would he be guilty of that deserves death? Burning a book he owns?

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If he wanted to burn a book...go ahead and burn it.
by JP Bill / April 2, 2011 2:33 PM PDT
In reply to: he might be murdered

If he didn't tell anyone no one would know/care.

But that would defeat his purpose wouldn't it?

He just wanted some hate speech.

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He's a "preacher"
by James Denison / April 2, 2011 3:21 PM PDT

Burning the book was a form of preaching for him. Demonstrative style. Anyway, he's done nothing worse than we did by burning Nazi books when Americans went into Germany. What's happened to us since then?

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What's happened to us since then?
by JP Bill / April 2, 2011 9:34 PM PDT
In reply to: He's a "preacher"

Where would you like me to start?

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I don't think the Nazi books ...
by Kees_B Forum moderator / April 2, 2011 9:37 PM PDT
In reply to: He's a "preacher"

were consider holy be the Germans. As you might know from your own experience some people have quite irrational feelings when it concerns religion.
That really makes a huge difference.

Although I'm sure you personally wouldn't start killing Muslims if some fool in Afghanistan started burning Bibles, you might disapprove demonstratively burning a Bible much more than demonstratively burning a Windows manual. Or wouldn't you care?

Kees

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It would bother me if he was
by James Denison / April 3, 2011 12:34 AM PDT

burning my personal bible. If he was burning one he owned, that's his business. If he wanted to burn a lot more, I'd open a book store.

My only objection to Koran burning is I figure in some way it supports them financially since likely to be published by some Islamic publisher. I'd rather keep it as a study reference, and I may have one around here somewhere. I know there's a book of Mormon on a bookshelf here which I picked up and read years ago. I also remember reading an English translation of the Koran, but can't remember if it's one I purchase and is packed away, or one I checked from a library years ago.

The good thing about what Terry Jones did is to send a message that Americans are still free, and won't be held hostage, neither by violence nor threats of violence, as if that should somehow abridge our freedoms. It might be a message that upsets Islamist, but it's a good message for America because it says we still believe in freedom.

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Sorry, I disagree Terry Jones done anything good
by Roger NC / April 3, 2011 10:00 AM PDT

in burning the Koran.

While not disputing the not held hostage viewpoint, I disagree violently with expressing contempt and hatred for someone's belief by deliberately doing the one thing I know will offend them the most.

Deliberately baiting someone to take action isn't refusing to be a hostage, it's provoking someone then blaming it all on them. Do I excuse the radical's actions and murder and blame it on him? NO.

But neither does he get a free pass, or worse a pat on the back. I see him as being just as offensive and wrong as I see the Westboro Baptist church deliberately doing everything they can to further wound a dead serviceman's family by disrupting the funeral, on the way or at the graveside.

Both can preach what they believe in without making injury to others their primary goal. Both aren't preaching how to live or believe, they're out to game fame and attention by delivering a so call message in the most outrageous and media grabbing way the can and to hell with who and what it damages.

Baiting like this is like the kid who verbally taunts another until the second child physically attacks, then whines he didn't hit the second kid. It doesn't excuse the physical attack, it doesn't justify the baiting.

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I see both sides but agree with your handling of the issue
by Steven Haninger / April 3, 2011 10:10 AM PDT

One who wants to taunt a bully should do that to the bully's face and allow himself to face the consequences. You don't dare the bully to beat up your own brothers.

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Then you both fall into the trap
by James Denison / April 3, 2011 11:28 AM PDT

..of Islam. Obviously it works, so they continue to use it.

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(NT) Obviously with you there is no debate on it
by Roger NC / April 3, 2011 12:49 PM PDT
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RE: Obviously it works, so they continue to use it.
by JP Bill / April 3, 2011 1:06 PM PDT

We know you'll be praying for us.

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Well, I think there's some value in showing the rest of
by Steven Haninger / April 3, 2011 6:55 PM PDT

the world that we are better than those we criticize by not behaving the same as they do. What's it said about 'walking the walk'?

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Steve
by James Denison / April 4, 2011 12:48 AM PDT

The message of Islam delivered by these murderers is that for the over 230 million US citizens that didn't burn a Koran, they were nothing in comparison to one citizen who did. I'm not out burning Korans, you aren't out burning Korans, I doubt anyone in SE is out burning Korans, but one person in America burns a Koran one day and that's an excuse to riot and murder people who had no association at all with it. Even if they'd killed Jones, they'd not have been justified. It's just one excuse after another to murder and riot, that's all it is. As long as the world gives them way, they will take it. The best way to let them know, and peaceably, that the world is finished with their foolishness is to declare if thousands burn Korans, not one single person should be killed by them. They need to learn their attempts at long range intimidation will be paid no mind, will be rejected, will be villified.

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RE: They need to learn their attempts at long range
by JP Bill / April 4, 2011 1:02 AM PDT
They need to learn their attempts at long range intimidation will be paid no mind, will be rejected, will be vilified

AND Terry Jones wasn't trying long range intimidation, and he should be paid no mind, will be rejected and will be villified?

You still think he did nothing wrong?
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That's like saying that Christianity
by Diana Forum moderator / April 4, 2011 1:20 AM PDT

are responsible for the Inquisition and the murder of thousands of Muslims and Jews and other Christians that didn't toe the Churh's line.

Sound familiar? I often wonder how often the pastors that burn the Koran or picket the funerals of servicemen and women think about what would Jesus do? I don't remember Him ever condemn one person that couldn't or wouldn't follow him. He did condemn hypocrites who flouted their religion and how pious they were while people were watching.

We are studying about praying in church. This past Sunday we talked about Jesus saying that those people that stood on the steps of the Temple and prayed loudly to impress others. He said that they alreay had their reward. He advocated praying quietly for their reward in Heaven.

Which are these preachers doing?

Diana

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James, for some Muslims
by Steven Haninger / April 4, 2011 7:21 AM PDT

any lame excuse will do when it comes to showing provocation. I agree that a Koran burning sounds lame but we know they'll inflate the issue beyond our own sense of reason. We're not coddling them if we don't burn their Koran but why indulge them by providing some dumb excuse to kill? I'm not disagreeing with you that these Muslim killers were entirely responsible for their horrible actions but I can see no constructive purpose for this pastor to act as he did. While he may properly claim there is no blood on his own hands, I don't think he can properly claim that this action is one that's true to his calling.

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Now that I can agree with
by James Denison / April 4, 2011 10:06 AM PDT

The incidents should be viewed separately.

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I disagree....
by C1ay / April 4, 2011 11:11 AM PDT

Mr. Jones 'willingly and knowingly' committed and act he had been warned would cause extremists to commit violence against innocent bystanders. He knew what would happen and he did it anyway. What he did was wrong. Yes, the people he incited are murderers but it was he that knowingly incited them for no other reason than to provoke them. He yelled fire in a crowded theater and he should be held accountable for that.

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I do have to disagree with your analogy
by Steven Haninger / April 4, 2011 7:05 PM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

Yelling "fire" in any crowded theater can evoke panic. What we have here is yelling "book burning" (by name of book) and there is only one crowd that become hysterical over that. I don't think it's necessary to take full responsibility for anyone's atypical reactions to stimuli, it's important to try and learn them. Those reactions should not, however, mean that we need to alter our behavior in a manner that adversely affects our own right to pursue happiness but I don't see that Koran burning is something that should bring joy. Mr. Jones was not, IMO, responsible for any deaths but obviously he didn't learn or take a lesson from these Muslim people's sensitivity. As a preacher and a proclaimed "man of God", his job was performed improperly. He is to be an example of what he should be teaching and he failed miserably.

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In reply to: "I do have to disagree.."
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / April 4, 2011 7:59 PM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

I believe the analogy still holds true, and respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

The person who shouts "fire" does so maliciously in order to cause mayhem. He shoulders the ultimate responsibility for what happens next.

In the same way Jones yelled "fire" knowing it would provoke a response. How did he know? He performed a 'trial run' last year when he stated his intention to burn this book. That intention provoked worldwide protest by Muslims and was well publicised by the media. Further demonstration was only prevented by the intervention of the President, but Jones knew the depth of feeling his intention had caused.

Whether the response to the actual book burning was atypical or not, Jones knew that doing it would provoke a response, and yet he still did it.

That doesn't remove the responsibility for the killings from the murderers, and they should rot in hell. But Jones was the catalyst. He knew that his action was likely to cause a similar response, and yet he deliberately and with malice aforethought decided to go ahead. Did he think the response would be the same, or worse?

I doubt Jones has learned his lesson. Being the catalyst is as much the cause as those who carried out the murders, and he shoulders the initial responsibility. If he does it again, (do you think he won't?), will he do it in all innocence? I doubt it.

Mark

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Flax
by James Denison / April 4, 2011 11:48 PM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

Let's take it into a different venue. BBQ. Two houses down lives a vegan, and not just any vegan, but one who is extremely fanatical in his stand against eating meat. He's so fanatical that he believes nobody else should eat meat either, but what really enrages him is when his neighbors BBQ on a Saturday, because then it's outside, he has to see it, he has to smell it, and it gets him incensed (pun intended). He decides his belief is the only correct one and furthermore that everyone is obligated to respect it, even if they feel and believe differently. Everyone in the neighborhood knows he's got a temper, he can get upset over the least matter, and for the most part they go out of their way to avoid him or at least not to set him off about anything. The neighbors right next door, already having been assaulted by him in times previous decide it's easier to just do all their cooking indoor and forego BBQ's on Saturday, unless they take it to the park and do it there, all to mollify and not set off this irate vegan.

Two doors down though moved in a new guy who doesn't really give a damn about the vegan, who doesn't share a fence line with him, and doesn't particularly have any regard for his more timid neighbors who have warned him not to BBQ, especially when the Vegan is at home on the weekend and can detect it. This neighbor has guts! His neighbors saw him about to BBQ one weekend and rushed over to warn him, asking him to please not since it could upset the crazy Vegan. He didn't that week but after thinking on it, realized things had to change and the best way to do that was to assert his right to have a BBQ on Saturday or Sunday or any other day of the week as he chose. He fires up his BBQ and puts some nice juicy steaks on it, pops open a beer and sits down to enjoy his steak, and happy he'd shown that Vegan that he was not going to be intimidated by him like the rest of the neighborhood was. The Vegan walks outside, smells the burning flesh of the steaks, realizes his vegan beliefs have been disrespected and explodes in a furious rage. He looks over at the new guy's place and realizes the new guy has finished his BBQ and is driving down the road for elsewhere to enjoy his Saturday. Enraged by it all, he goes next door to the neighbor between them, charges into his house, drags him and his family out and beats them to death. The police come along and pick up the crazy Vegan. The neighborhood is appalled at this turn of events and begin to blame the new guy for what happened to the murdered neighbor, since they'd warned him the guy was violent tempered and that if anything might set him off in a violent rage it would be BBQ on Saturday when he was home to see and smell it.

What SHOULD have been the reaction of that neighborhood? First, they should have NEVER began to allow themselves to be victimized by the Vegan. Second they should mourn those who were killed. Third they should thank the new neighbor who chose not to have his right to a Saturday BBQ taken away by the crazy Vegan's threats of violence. Fourth they should blame the Vegan for what he'd done and demand justice be done by his execution for the murders. Finally they rejoice they are not under that person's threats anymore and become determined they will NEVER surrender their rights to anyone else like the crazy Vegan again.

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RE: Let's take it into a different venue.
by JP Bill / April 5, 2011 1:48 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

Yes you are....VERY different

Comparing BBQing food before eating to burning a Koran.

Most people HAVE to eat, SOME enjoy BBQs, Would the guy get upset if it was a Vegetable BBQ? Anyone try that yet? His head might explode....he wouldn't know what to do.

NO one HAS to burn a Koran.

He decides his belief is the only correct one and furthermore that everyone is obligated to respect it, even if they feel and believe differently.

That's not Speakeasy is it?

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PS to "Let's take it to a different venue"
by JP Bill / April 5, 2011 2:07 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

The guy that had the BBQ should have stopped off at the Vegans House Before he went driving off down the road., even if it was just to tell him when he would be back.

Just as the guy burning the Koran should do it in Afghanistan.

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James, about your BBQ venue
by Steven Haninger / April 5, 2011 2:12 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

It's not bad...not bad at all...but it still doesn't make a perfect fit in this case. The guy who wanted to BBQ should be allowed to do so because he likes his food done that way. He should not have to forgo his pleasure for the wacky vegan. But, should he deliberately make a point of putting stoking up the barby just for the purpose of annoying his neighbor? I don't think so. Now if Mr. Jones had a passion for burning Korans and it gave him pleasure, that would be weird but it would be another matter to take in to consideration. I don't think the man meant to do this strictly for recreation.

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Steven
by C1ay / April 5, 2011 2:14 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

Mr. Jones did what he did to provoke a response. He was informed beforehand that his action would cause the deaths of others and he did it anyhow. He intended for mayhem to happen just like the person who yells fire in a theater knowing there is no fire. They both act with the same motivation....to cause harm to come to others.

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One of the problems...
by J. Vega / April 5, 2011 3:14 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

One of the problems about using things like a BBQ or other gathering in a discussion of a gathering that is intended to provoke a response in others that may lead to violence is that some people might have forgotten past things like a lunch counter "sit in" in one of the locations where many people believed in a right to refuse service to a particular group of people.
When you consider such cases, it becomes hard to look at all actions intended to provoke a response with a hard-fast "wrong" classification. Extremely complex social situations can require extremely complex analysis.

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RE: like a BBQ or other gathering
by JP Bill / April 5, 2011 4:39 AM PDT
In reply to: I disagree....

I thought the BBQ was just a guy and his family (not a gathering)...not a block party (Sans/minus Vegan)

gathering...... "wrong" classification?

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