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Question

Is type of signal (cable or satellite) related to judder?

Jan 20, 2015 1:38AM PST

I searched FAQs and forum topics but didn't come across any information that applied to my specific situation, which I don't think is unique. Let me start by saying that I didn't know what judder was until I purchased my most recent set, a 60 inch plasma from Panasonic (TC-P60ST60), a 2013 model. It was given a 5-star rating by CNET and favorably reviewed on other electronic websites as well. And true to the reviews, it provides a very good picture (color, blacks, definition, etc.). No disappointment there at all. But for the first time in my life (I'm 65), I experienced "judder" which to the eye looks like quickness or jumpiness in movement, especially around the head area or quick movements in general, or panning. Thankfully for me, judder is only evident on sitcoms, hour-long dramas, and some movies. I see some mild judder on DVDs, though Blu-ray is nearly flawless. My de-judder settings actually make judder worse so my best setting is "Off." While still under warranty, I had a Panasonic authorized repair service check out my TV. While there were no problems with the set itself (he put in a new video processor anyway), the repair technician asked how I received my signal. When I said cable, he mentioned something about "compressed signals," thinking that that type of signal may have something to do with the problem I was experiencing (judder). Since he didn't receive signals through cable at his shop, he saw no judder whatsoever. A short time later, my cable provider (Charter Communications) updated its set top box (cable box) which significantly reduced judder. I then contracted with a locally based provider (Mosaic) which reduced judder even further, though only marginally. In my ongoing search to reduce judder or eliminate it altogether, I bought an LED/LCD set that was also favorably reviewed (Sony KDL55W950B) and had it installed professionally. Because the judder was actually worse by far, the installer immediately took it down and re-installed my Panasonic. Okay, here's the critical part. My experiences have led me to believe that judder is not only associated with television sets themselves but also with the type of signal they receive. So my next step is to try a "direct" signal, one that is not "compressed," in other words, a satellite signal from Dish or Direct. At Walmart, for example, and other showrooms as well, I don't see any judder at all. When I asked what signal they used, they said it's a direct satellite feed. That further strengths the notion that the type of signal or source signal is important. So here's my question at long last. For you techies out there or simply those with the experience, what are your thoughts regarding judder as it relates to signal source (cable or satellite)? Phew! Thanks!

Discussion is locked

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Answer
Same here.
Jan 20, 2015 1:50AM PST

I continue to set motion processing to off. That certainly removes the TV as the source since it displays what the source sent.

There is some remaining issues with technology limitations of all current media. Pan too fast left or right and you'll upset the apple cart. Plenty written about that so let me be short. That's normal.
Bob

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Answer
There's definitely nothing wrong with the HDTV
Jan 20, 2015 6:02AM PST

I have worked with that group of Panasonics extensively. The ST60 is an incredible machine. If I could get another one now, I would, they are so amazing. My in-laws were the last family member of mine to grab one(!)

Unfortunately, you may be one of the minority whose eyes/brain are much more sensitive to certain types of motion on large displays. Some people notice other things like the dreaded 'screen door effect' (etc.) on their large HDTVs. Typically though, over time, and at more reasonable viewing distances (10-15'+), the issue can diminish from what I understand. I am honestly shocked that you somehow convinced a Panasonic technician to replace a board because of what you noticed. Unusual for them to go that route IME.

The quality of the signal will play a role too. But you have some misconstrued ideas of technologies vs quality. Keep in mind that both cable and satellite provide compressed signals. Only OTA (e.g. free HDTV received via an antenna) is uncompressed. But that doesn't mean you won't necessary encounter some content that the HDTV doesn't quite keep up with. In my experience with Comcast, TWC, RCN and Charter, they all have pluses and minuses. Charter is arguably bringing up the rear in some of their markets when I have had to deal with their tech support. I am not familiar with Mosaic, so I can't comment on what you should otherwise expect.

In general though, plasma handles fast motion scenes better than LED, but some LEDs (esp. the pricier Samsung models) do it better than others. Wal mart (or any other big box store) most certainly is not the place to be properly evaluating HDTVs or satellite feeds. Bob is correct that the motion settings should often be avoided. When viewing content on both plasma & LED, I've had channels fare worse than other when it comes to fast motion or pixelated content. Some shows in reality may have actually been upscaled SD content, which could perhaps be why you noticed motion issues on the ST60. Or, your Charter service was simply not performing as it should have at your location. YMMV.

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Follow-up question about signal and miscellany
Jan 20, 2015 7:55AM PST

Thanks Bob and Pepe for your responses. I have some follow-up questions and comments if you've the time and energy.

Regarding the repairman putting in a new video processor or board, I never asked. I simply wanted to know whether there was anything wrong with my TV (keep in mind that I'd never seen judder - I didn't know it even existed). I think he was motivated to replace it simply because it was still under warranty. Not a good reason but there you have it.

As for Mosaic Telecom, it's simply a very small company offering telephone, cable, and Internet service to a limited number of smaller communities. They can't really compete with the Big Boys relative to programming. I'll say this though: On AMC's Walking Dead, for example, Charter's signal produced a slightly "dirty" picture. Mosaic's signal cleared that up. In fact, all of their programming is "clear." By the way, Charter did check signals and equipment on a couple of occasions - I'll give them credit for that. Anything that could have been updated, they did.

And yes, for a long time now, my motion setting has been turned to Off.

Pepe: You struck a chord when you said that maybe some of my judder could be explained by "upscaled SD content." I like to watch reruns of Seinfeld and some other sitcoms of their ilk and time. There was definite judder on those shows but far less after my cable box was updated. It's really, really freaky to me when I've watched some very old movies because I see very little to no judder on those (think Clark Gable era). My main viewing distance is 15 to 16 feet, though sometimes about 10.

For what it's worth, my brother has a 50 inch Pioneer plasma (later bought out by Panasonic along with their technology) and it has no judder that I can detect across any or all programming. He gets his signal from Direct. That's why I was wondering whether a satellite signal would reduce or eliminate judder on my set. I'm a little reluctant to enter into a two-year contact with little chance of improvement. I had no judder issues with my last TV set and it was also a Panasonic plasma, though only 42 inches, if that makes a difference.

To repeat, I have no issues with "live" programming such as the News or sporting events, or programs that are taped live, then shown later. Also, I have virtually no judder on "reality shows" or stuff that's on Discovery or National Geographic. You get the idea. Judder is only evident to some degree (varies) on sitcoms, hour-long dramas, and some movies. Commercials are the worst, though they vary too. Some have "jumpy" parts, some not.

So what do you think? Give satellite a chance? Part of me wants to try it out due to simple curiosity but I also would respect your opinions. I do accept Bob's assertion that some judder is normal (at least now I do). I also accept Pepe's assertion that some individuals have brains that are hypersensitive to slight irregularities in movement. That's me alright.

Thanks for your patience!

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Here's about the pan problem.
Jan 20, 2015 8:05AM PST
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Macroblocking
Jan 20, 2015 10:12AM PST

That's probably what you were noticing, and it was likely upscaled SD content on certain channels. Yes, some of what you see on a typical cable provider's very overpriced lineup can look like crap sometimes Sad. Before my parents retired they had Charter service- which was absolutely horrid vs my current Comcast service. The clunky DVR they supplied was just pathetic too.

Here's another useful site which compares HDTVs/performance. Notice how the ST60 is still rated quite high vs others.
http://www.rtings.com/info/motion-blur-tvs/2013

If you are referring to any of the highly regarding 'Kuro' Pioneers, yes- they are spectacular. Believe or not though, the ST60, when professionally calibrated, comes very close if not arguably better than the older Kuro's PQ. Your older Panny most certainly does not have the better internals of the ST60 though. PQ has improved quite a bit from their older rigs. Performance really did go up drastically (I have owned them too).

There would be nothing wrong with testing out satellite, but I can assure you that all satellite providers offer similarly compressed programming/upscaled SD shows/etc. If Mosaic is an improvement over Charter, you might not necessarily do better switching to Sat. My thought, although quite impractical, is to test out your Panny at a friend's home who has DISH or DirecTV. Two year contracts are TV programming for the birds IMHO, but I understand you want to be as satisfied as possible. Plan 'B' would be to have a friend come over and place his HDTV in your dwelling to see if the same feed offers judder on another TV make/model. You could also grab a Samsung LCD on sale to see how that looks with the same feed at your house. Just test and return it.

Let us know how it goes.

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Satisfaction
Jan 20, 2015 10:55PM PST

Okay guys, your thoughts and opinions hit the spot. Just to reiterate, the picture the ST60 delivers is well above average; I've never had any complaints about that, only praise. It's just the judder thing I was wanting to relieve. I will follow up on the sites you posted.

Pepe: In my first post, I mentioned that I recently bought a 55 inch Sony LED/LCD (KDL55W950B that had favorable reviews). I was wanting to see if it held up better to judder or any kind of motion irregularity. This past Monday, the professional installer who has done all my work (I'm not very tech savvy) hooked it up. The judder was actually quite a bit worse even when he manipulated the motion settings. It was also then that I noticed its picture couldn't hold a candle to the ST60, even on National Geographic (almost everything looks good on that channel). We also popped in a DVD (Showtime's Dexter series from about 7 years ago) and, it too, had some judder. Within minutes, the new set came down and the old one (ST60) back up. That addresses the experiment you posed above (I think).

Thanks again to the two of you. I've got some thinking to do.

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Answer
Too much going on
Jan 21, 2015 12:50AM PST

I've had users complain about this and that on their new TVs and found that getting anything on a 100% basis is too much to ask for. To get the signal from WHATEVER SOURCE is a long process. Also, the bigger the TV, the more likely some issue will crop-up. Any "judder, spelled shudder" is the signal either not having the time to catch up to the demands of the display of the TV -OR- can't convert or scan it fast enough. Which why alot depends on the source, especially if it has to relayed across various uplink channels. If you TV has options galore, consider that as also an issue sooner or later if you expect it to deliver some option always at its extreme or hi-level of output, sound being an example. Next, you have "age" which over time can reduce some aspects of a TV and also the new "stream media" may vary as well or has become more complex for whatever reason and your TV isn't as capable to handle or decyper what needs to be done in a timely fashion or at all. I think all the other posters have touched on your issue as well or similar to what I have explained. good luck

tada -----Willy Happy