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General discussion

Is Oxycodone as widely prescribed as is indicated on TV

Mar 20, 2010 12:30PM PDT

(and yes, I am aware that TV is fiction). Only one person I know here, in acute kidney failure, has been prescribed Oxycodone. Tylenol 3, T4 if you ask for it though it did nothing better than T3 for me, Percoset (a friend with Migraines), but just that one person who was taking it while in the hospital.

Rob

Discussion is locked

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I've not known a person who was prescribed Oxycodone but
Mar 20, 2010 8:12PM PDT

one who got Oxycontin for pain management due to severe spinal stenosis. I also know that it her usage of it needed to be controlled by her husband as she'd forget she'd taken it grab more. I was in her presence a couple of times when she'd done this and got really strange but I can't say that she was deliberately abusing the drug. Personally, I've never gotten that classic sense of euphoria one is supposed to feel while taking narcotics. I try to avoid them as the side affects of taking them are, to me, worse than living with the pain.

It just so happens that I'm currently a pain management following back surgery for a disk blow-out in the lower lumbar region that was messing up my left leg quite badly. After the surgery, I tried to tough it out but that lasted only one day before giving in. So, for about 2 weeks (or as needed), I'm taking hydrocodone-apap (a synthetic opiate of some kind) and cyclobenzaprine (a muscle relaxant) but not so much for the pain as for one of restlessness that's been preventing me from getting a good night of sleep. I'd had these or similar early after the blow-out as I was unable get through the MRI which was 45 minutes of lying still on what felt like a concrete floor. I was unable to do that without help. In any event, I don't really face my next dose of drugs with eager anticipation and never feel like taking extra for fun so I'm at a loss as to why anyone would turn to criminal behavior to ingest these nasty little pills. Happy

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been there, done that
Mar 20, 2010 8:49PM PDT

my "magic drug" is Naxyn.....

i take it for muscular problems and/or severe lower back pain

over the years different doctors have prescribed their "favourites"
but the one that works for me is naxyn

.,

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Is it OTC in Israel yet?
Mar 20, 2010 9:01PM PDT

The main brand name here is Naprosyn, but I think it's the same thing. In the US you can get low dose forms OTC (over the counter with no prescription) but the higher doses are still Rx only.

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doctors prescription only
Mar 20, 2010 9:03PM PDT

and a "mental evaluation" is part of the process

it's a "popular" drug on the streets too Sad

,.

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Then my information must be wrong ....
Mar 20, 2010 11:41PM PDT

There must be something other than naproxen in it or else something in addition to naproxen. I hate the fact that drugs have different names in different countries.

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(NT) i'll check later this after-noon
Mar 20, 2010 11:52PM PDT
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Britain,not without grumbling about it, aligning with the US
Mar 21, 2010 9:46PM PDT

over naming conventions.

Rob

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No "magic drug" here as side affects take that away
Mar 20, 2010 11:50PM PDT

Hydrocodone-apap causes constipation and can mess with ones liver. Cyclobenzaprine messes with men with enlarged prostates. How many men over 60 don't have that? So now you get to counteract the side affects by taking other medications and/or pouring fluids into your body faster than you can eliminate them. You can wind up taking more pills for the side affects than for the treatment drugs and need a carousel type spice rack to contain them all. If you weren't that sick before, you surely are now....and why did my wife say my breath smelled like cloves? Happy

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(NT) Thanks Steve, I'll stay away from the cyclobenzaprine. Urrgh
Mar 21, 2010 10:00PM PDT
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Bad news about opioids is they all cause constipation
Mar 21, 2010 10:14PM PDT

to a greater or lesser degree. That's why I try to limit my intake.

Old time opium smokers suffered from this problem too.

Don't know if this is equally true about Pethidine or Meperidine or Demerol (all the same thing). They were invented in Nazi Germany which had no access to the Poppies that produced Morphine and other similar drugs.

Rob

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My profound sympathies for the blown disc. They're a *****.
Mar 21, 2010 9:42PM PDT

In terms of muscle relaxants for back pain due to spasm or injury, Robaxasal (with ASA) or Robaxacet (with Tylenol) are widely used here. Primary ingredient is Carbamazole. It gives me very restless legs. I had a rotten tooth many years ago and neither Tylenol 3 nor possibly Percoset was holding me. I was taking too much Percoset, partly because I was sufficiently disoriented not to have remembered taking my most recent dose, and partly because I was still in incredible pain without any let up. They opened up the temporary filling and that released the pressure. Then they prescribed Xanax. I can't quite describe what Xanax felt like except I felt nauseated but completely numb at the same time. I ditched that med after the second dose.

I take Naprosyn EC (Enteric Coated) for my arthritis in knees and feet which is the primary component of Naxyn (did I spell that right Jonah?).

All Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs or NSAIDs save one have significant gastro-intestinal side effects and can cause ulcers and bleeding. The exception is Acetaminophen or Tylenol. Incidentally, Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs are even worse on the gut. There is no escape. My wife favours Ibuprofen, otherwise known as Motrin, and Aleve I think. I used to take Brufen ****** which was 800mg of Ibuprofen at bed time. and slept well because my feet didn't ache. You can't buy that formulation on this side of the Atlantic and taking 2 400's is not reccommended. Liver complications.

Rob, as always deferring to Dr. Bill on questions of health.

Hydrocodone is a similar drug to codeine phosphate, and is filed in the CPS (the Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties the equivalent of the Physicians Desk Reference if memory serves) under the blanket name of Opioids which includes Morphine, Pethidine/Meperidine, Codeine, Oxycodone, Fentanyl, and Methadone. Oxycodone = Oxycontin, they're the same drug. I did drive my Dad home from the hospital when he was loaded on Morphine, and it was an amusing drive one summer in the early 70's when he would periodically open his eyes and look around and do the middle aged equivalent of "Oh, Wow, man. Heavy." and close his eyes again.

I would like to solicit Dr. Bill's advice on this since I've had back pain since I was in my late 20's. My approach is to take T3 and the second dose anywhere from 2 and a half to 3 hours later if my back has started hurting again. From that point on it's srictly per the doctor's order, but I feel it is important "to get ahead of the pain curve" as I call it. From that point on it's every 4 hours, and when combined with Robaxacet or its generic equivalent, I'm usually okay in 3 days, though I often wear a back brace if I think I'm going to be doing something potentially difficult for my back. There is an additional problem in that both Robaxacet and T3 contain Tylenol which is hard on the kidneys. In Britain a dose of 1500mg of Tylenol is often given for migraines or post operatively. and that's what 2 Tylenol and a Robaxacet contain, so I don't worry, but I am aware of what I'm taking. It's curious here that post gastroscopy where they generally gave 2 Extrastrength Acetaminophen (1500mg), here they give 1 500mg Acetaminophen. Oh and I cut back on the T3 after the first day to 1 q4h (that's every 4 hours)

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It probably varies ...
Mar 20, 2010 8:44PM PDT

Also, it might depend on what you mean by 'oxycodone'. Do you mean pure oxycodone? That would include Oxycontin (the exended release version) and plain oxycodone. Oxycodone is also one of the active ingredients in Tylox, Percocet and other mixed analgesics. I don't know if the brand names are the same in Canada.

Personally, I don't prescribe a lot of oxycodone, even when patients need narcotics, partly because of the negative publicity (patients tend to think oxycodone is lots more dangerous than other narcotics) and also because of the prescription regulation for Schedule II drugs. I'm not convinced oxycodone is much different from hydrocodone in either addiction risk or efficacy but the DEA does regulate them differently and they do have different reputations on street. Patients sometimes seem to think hydrocodone (eg: Vicodin) is harmless and weak but that oxycodone is some sort of powerful evil creation. That's wrong for both drugs.

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I would venture a guess that....
Mar 21, 2010 6:07AM PDT

Oxycodone is the most widely prescribed fast acting pain med in the field of Oncology since it is the most compatible with the popular long acting meds Fentanyl, Oxycontin, MS Contin and Methadone that are frequently used with cancer patients.

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You would be right.
Mar 21, 2010 9:13AM PDT
http://www.avancen.com/article_files/AVANCEN_Poster.pdf
Oxycodone forms are at the top of the list for breakthrough pain, but hydrocodone is a close competitor.

There is no incompatibility limiting other combinations but oncologists (like the rest of us) are creatures of habit.

One of the really popular exceptions for severe breakthrough pain is Actiq (a Fentanyl 'lollipop') and there are some other interesting choices that are available.
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Re: Compatability
Mar 21, 2010 1:02PM PDT

I mentioned it because I had researched Dilaudid as one of the alternatives when my wife had cancer and my pharmacist told me that me there wouldn't be any 'good' alternatives for breakthrough pain to go with it. Eventually I requested methadone and roxycodone which kept her comfortable until her passing.

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I don't understand the pharmacist's comment
Mar 21, 2010 8:17PM PDT

I'm not a pharmacologist nor am I an expert in pain management but I don't know any reason Dilaudid would be a problem in combination with the usual short duration narcotic analgesics.

I'm not sure that the standard Dilaudid preparations have long enough duration to be entirely satisfactory as the long acting agent in pain management but that is a separate question. There is a sustained release for available.

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I didn't either but he knows more than I for sure....
Mar 21, 2010 10:21PM PDT

He did point out to me that of the long acting analgesics that methadone was the best choice. He explained that the other opiates only bind to one of three opiate receptors whereas methadone binds with all 3. It also has the longest half-life of the lot giving it a more steady level of relief without the peaks and valleys that happen with the others.

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A curious thing about Methadone ...
Mar 22, 2010 12:22PM PDT

He is right that it has a longer life in the body than the other alternatives, but it does have some problems. I used to use a moderate amount of methadone in chronic pain patients, especially if they lacked good insurance, because it is inexpensive. Unfortunately, it can cause heart rhythm problems in some patients and it has some problematic drug interactions. Also, although the medication itself stays in the blood for a while its analgesic effects do not last as long as we used to think they do but the toxic effects can last for quite a while. The result is that there are usually better choices for chronic pain.

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Maybe they worry about those problems less with....
Mar 22, 2010 3:50PM PDT

terminal cancer patients like my wife. Methadone worked well for her and she moved to it from MS Contin. She tried the fentanyl patches but she had a hard time keeping them on and they were expensive. If I remember correctly the MS Contin wasn't that expensive either should you have some patients that can't afford the alternatives. The doctor did have a hard time getting her blood pressure stabilized toward the end because of the extremely high dose of Methadone she was taking but she didn't seem to have any problems with any of the other 15 or so meds she was taking. If any of her doctors prescribed anything that didn't mix well with what she was taking my pharmacist would let me know and advise on alternatives.

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C1ay,very sorry to hear about your wife. MS Contin is
Mar 22, 2010 8:16PM PDT

Morphine Sulfate in a time release (i.e. continuous ) format, just as Oxycontin is Oxycodone in a time release format. I'm not surprised that Methadone worked better, and I'm not that surprised that she had trouble with Fentanyl patches. We used to tape them in place with old fashioned cotton tape that we bought at external pharmacies because the non-allergenic tapes available in hospital wouldn't stick. People in pain often perspire. It's a big draw-back to the patch and they should work on an improvement, but they haven't yet. All of us on our ward were out of pocket for tape because the hospital wouldn't order it or supply it. We made up a rota, and tried to stay at least 2 rolls ahead at any time.

Rob

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(NT) Thanks Dr. Bill. Good info. RTB
Mar 22, 2010 8:06PM PDT
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Been there...
Mar 21, 2010 11:19AM PDT

I was prescribed that when I had kidney stones. It was more than weeks worth as I had to allow it to pass. During that time, take as needed or during painful periods. It works but it only took the edge off for awhile. Of course, I've passed the stone, thank God. Also, it allowed me some sleep. But, there are others in line when they decide to drop......Oh no. I don't want that but this is the 2nd time. I drink more water now. Happy -----Willy

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My profound sympathies and best of luck, Willy.
Mar 21, 2010 9:57PM PDT

For Renal Colic as the symptoms of kidney stones are called, they used to prescribe Dilaudid. It was the classic 40's and 50's junkie jazz musician tricks to walk into a doctors office with a hand on the hip, index finger pointing down, and hunched over, and when asked for a urine sample, they'd ***** their finger and add a little blood to the sample. That and perhaps some money under the table could get them a prescription for dilaudid which was then cooked up and injected.

Rob

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Anybody date back far enough to remember Brompton's Cocktail
Mar 21, 2010 10:07PM PDT

It was a mixture of Morphine and other analgesics, possibly including Heroin, which was used for terminally ill cancer patients with nearly intractable pain. I believe it originated at the Brompton Road Hospital (London) and was in use when I first started working summers in hospitals around 1965. It was drunk rather than injected, but as a liquid it took effect fairly quickly (about 15 minutes).

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Dear Dr. Bill. If I've made any mistakes here, please
Mar 21, 2010 10:16PM PDT

correct them. I like to think I'm up to date, but when you're not working in the field any more, knowledge flags, and new thinks may escape our notice.

Rob