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General discussion

Is it legal to make backup copies of my purchased DVDs and Blu-rays?

Jun 1, 2012 8:01AM PDT
Question:

Is it legal to make backup copies of my purchased DVDs and Blu-rays?


I am wondering if there is a way to make backup copies of my media. Back
in the day when I purchased a new album (black acetate records), I
would copy it to reel to reel and put the album away for safe keeping.
I still do the same today and I also make backup copies of all my
CDs. My problem is what can I do to make backup copies of my DVD and
Blu-ray collection. I would hate to see something happen to them and
have to purchase them new again. Is there a way that I can do this?
But first is it legal to do as I get conflicting answers that it is
illegal to back them up even if I purchase them for my use and own
them. What's the difference between this media and my records and CDs
that I have backed up? Please help explain this. Thanks.

--Submitted by Michael

Discussion is locked

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Yes it is legal in the USA, but the software is illegal.
Jun 8, 2012 12:56PM PDT

It is legal in the USA to made copies of your legally purchase media as long as you use it for personal use and not distribute it. Now the catch is the software you need do this is illegal to sell in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Decrypter

"Under United States' Federal law, making a backup copy of a DVD-Video or an audio CD by a consumer is legal under fair use protection. This provision of United States law conflicts with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibition of so-called "circumvention measures" of copy protections.

In the "321" case, Federal District Judge Susan Illston of the Northern District of California,[5] ruled that the backup copies made with software such as DVD Decrypter are legal but that distribution of the software used to make them is illegal.

In 2010 the Librarian of Congress instituted a DMCA exemption which protects circumvention of CSS protection under certain circumstances.[6] This exemption will expire in 2013."

So basically it's a Catch 22.

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Perhaps it is this exemption...
Jun 9, 2012 3:46AM PDT

but I know if one has properly setup devices, both in hardware and software, you can definitely copy content for backup and usage among friends, as long as they have the proper hardware and software setup as well.

In other words, one must let the IAA spy on your habits, or they take you license away.

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I'm sure there are enough posts but anyway.
Jun 8, 2012 12:57PM PDT

Breaking the built in copy protection on movies is illegal. That being said, a lot of the new dvds being released are unencrypted 4gb movies which have no copy protection whatsoever. So would making a copy of them be illegal? I really don't know. But for my part, I'll be honest, I just a copy of the Night at The Museum 1 & 2 dvd set, and on the original movie, my blu ray player, and other dvd player skip with the built in dvd protection. It does play fine on some older model dvd players and the blu ray player in my pc. That being said, I didn't want to have to return the movie that works on MOST of my equipment, even if it's not where I normally watch. So, out of curiousity I did make a backup and burn it, which ironically plays perfectly on all the players. So regardless of legality, I have my purchased copy, the copy I can watch in here and not worry about the store copy getting damaged, and nothing saved on the pc. I'm of the belief that anything you purchase that you want to protect and can, you should be able to. As long as you're not pirating anything a single copy like in my case shouldn't be so bad.

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I shouldn't doubt...
Jun 9, 2012 3:57AM PDT

that this could be true. Especially on content that does not render 1080p content, or a device that is not capable of rendering 1080p content. In the case of music it would be the same thing but in relation to the most modern digital Dolby or 5.1 to 7.1 quality content.

In any case - my equipment lets me have a lot of freedom because it watches every move I make. My machine is riddled with DRM spybots. I set my security software to allow these IAA notification spies, so I can enjoy the content unimpeded. However - if I make one false move, the hardware/software DRM shuts me down. I spent 3 years tearing my hair out, trying to solve these problems. No wonder people steal content! They can't get their legal content to work!!

I stay legal, but I can't blame anyone that isn't a consummate geek for not being able to comply with the flawed DMCA schemes the industry dreams up!

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Hollywood Must Prove Damages
Jun 8, 2012 1:07PM PDT

In the court of law in the Police States, I mean, the United States of America, you must prove damages. They say that you violated copyright law. But how did that hurt them? Did they lose anything? Property damage, didn't get paid, what?
Well, none of that happened. You followed the agreement of fair use. You backed up your license to the disc. They can't prove that you pirated it, shared it, or they lost anything. Any judge can see this. Its just a matter or bringing it up.
If I were you, and I had the HDD space to do it, I'd be putting those discs in the iMac and start up Handbrake......

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What is your purpose?
Jun 8, 2012 1:13PM PDT

Legality depends on what you do with it.

Lets' start with copyright. It's exactly as the name implies; it's the right to copy. Thus studios and developers want to enforce their right to determine the copies being made. So, when a copy is made without the copyright holders permission, that's an infringement on the copyright. There is more to it but this is the basic premise.

The thing is, when we purchase a movie, CD, video game, we are not purchasing the copyrighted work. We are purchasing a license to use the media the copyright holder has released. The tangible media is the representation of license. Media = License/No media = no license.

So making a copy of the DVD/Blu-ray can plainly be seen as an infringement on copyright. BUT, as others have mentioned, there is a "Fair Use" exception. There are 4 factors to Fair Use:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

So to go one by one:

(1) the purpose and character of the use is for personal back up; (Good factor)
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work - in this case movie (Neutral factor)
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used is the whole thing (Bad factor)
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work brings us to the stick point.

Studios, developers and artists say the impact on the market is that is lessened. However, the
people claiming Fair Use would say there is no impact as they already purchased and will not be distributing (the last part is key). So if the court finds that the market is not impacted or marginally impacted, there may would a Fair Use exception.

In fact, there are 2 cases that allowed copying: [Sony Corporation of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc.] (a.k.a the Betamax case) and [Recording Industry ***'n of America v. Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc.]. The U.S. Supreme Court developed the theory of "time shifting" and "space shifting" through these cases respectively. In the Sony case, the Court basically said that the personal user was shifting when they watch the TV show recorded on the Betamax. In the Diamond case, the personal user was shifting the space from computer to their MP3 player.

However, the counter point comes from [A&M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc.] and [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd.]. The users argued that this was sharing like making a mix CD to be given to a friend. The U.S. Supreme Court did not buy the argument and saw the P2P programs were for active distribution (Grokster even advertised that you can get free movies). Thus both were shut down as infringements of copyright with no Fair Use exception.

Lastly, Lee Koo did mention the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). He is also correct in saying that it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections. Thus, if you made a straight out bit for bit (b4b) copy, this would NOT be illegal. However, a b4b probably won't work on a computer which may mean you have to change it. If you had to use software to overcome a block, DMCA says it illegal. Otherwise, you may be okay based on the Sony case and the Diamond case.

Interestingly, it is LEGAL to reverse engineer or decrypt protections for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.

So going back to the main point, if it is a simple copy and you are using the copy strictly for personal use, it is probably going to be LEGAL. If you had to overcome any sort of protections (this is generally found as cracks for video games) it is most likely ILLEGAL.

As a final word, if you buy the multi-disc Blu-rays, usually, you are already paying for the license to make a digital copy and the studios generally make it easy to obtain the digital copy so you won't be tempted to use a program to hack the movie.

P.S. the reason I know all the above is I did a 40 page independent research paper regarding User's Rights to Digital Media.

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Doesn't matter
Jun 8, 2012 1:20PM PDT

To be perfectly honest, I don't care if it is or isn't. I'll back them up for my own personal use. I don't think the feds are going to kick my door down over this.

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copies
Jun 8, 2012 1:38PM PDT

Many moons ago I trod on my Win 2k disc and broke it.
I rang Microsoft support here in the UK explained and asked if I could buy a new disc to use on the same key at a reduced price. NO they said.
I said Ive a license from you to use the O/S but I do need a disc to do that.
Go buy a new one then was the response.
So I always now back up software discs,j just in case I damage the original.
Policing any backup copying be it illegal or not is impossible anyway.

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Not violative of copyright laws
Jun 8, 2012 1:43PM PDT

Copyright laws are substantially uniform throughout the world, because of Bern convention, to which most of the nations are signatories. Therefore, this reply from India can be treated as essentially correct for other territories also. The purpose of the copyright law is to protect the valuable interest developed by creator of the work of art, or computer program of written material. It takes intellectual inputs, creativity and long effort to develop a new work. Copyright law protects the right of the creator or the right holder so that he is paid whenever someone uses his work or enjoys its benefit. Every time, a work of art or book or computer program or music is sold the creator gets the royalty. This is his reward. In a case where one has purchased a movie or music album and makes a copy, it must be appreciated that the creator of the work or the right holder has legitimately transferred the right of use and enjoyment to the buyer. Thus, making a back up copy does not violate this right. It is important that such copies or even the originals are not shared or distributed either freely or for money. That would definitely be violative of the copyright held by the creator or the right holder. This is particularly true, where the users have the tendency to transfer music from one mobile to another mobile or computer without second thought. Every such act will deprive the original creator of his right to earn royalty from such new user.

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What is a contract clause?

I don't think the Digital Millenium Copyright law is legal.

Back in the 80's, I worked for a theater company and on the back of the tickets there were terms and conditions for admittance. Are the words on the back of the ticket a "contract"? I never signed anything when I bought a movie ticket. So how can we have a contract? Is it what we called a "contract clause"?

The same thing goes for ULAS (spelling) and software. Unless I get a contract to sign at the point of sale (which I won't sign), why should I agree to contracts on a computer on how software should be used?

When I buy a DVD or a Blueray, where am I signing for a license? I can pay with cash and I haven't signed anything. Isn't it like being compared to being comitted to the funny farm without signing anything?

I can buy a checker's game at a department store but if I buy a checker's game for a computer, I'm restricted to having the program on one computer and I'm the only one allowed to use it. Does this hold true to libraries where they buy one DVD and only one person or one computer is allowed to view the DVD? It is nonsense.

I believe I have inalienable rights that can't be taken away like ownership or personal rights. I believe it is my personal right to be left alone from telemarketers and I grew up in a day when telemarketers and salesmen did not call. Now we don't have these rights but only have the right to "opt out". We've gone from inalienable rights from our creator to atheistic presuppositions that we don't have any rights or any say to our own lives and you can't challenge it because it is now "the norm".

I called my congressman about 15 years ago and their office said,"We don't work for free." Unfortunately, the legal system is not representing the consumer so the laws are not of the people, by the people or for the people anymore because the people who make the laws are doing it in favor of big companies in return for donations which are political bribes.

I don't backup movies so I don't care because I don't have time or money for a lot of non-learning activities because I don't make enough and my taxes are too high.

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In answer to your thoughts
Jun 8, 2012 2:53PM PDT

That your Congressman's office could not quote this does, indeed, speak to the lousy representation we all have to suffer, so maybe this will help.

Constitution of the United States of America
Article 1, Section 8

"The Congress Shall have the power ..."

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

And the resulting law as passed by Congress does not require a contract to enforce the copyright terms implicit in the purchased license. That does not mean that a purchaser cannot require one.

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It is legal for personal use.
Jun 8, 2012 2:12PM PDT

The short answer is that you can make your copies for personal enjoyment as long as you never freely share them with others by any method. I think it is also important to point out that NO ONE has the 'right' to copy a licensed work outside of the license agreement. Any copying permitted comes under 'privilege'. The long answer ...

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The only answer I know for Michael...
Jun 8, 2012 3:08PM PDT

I rarely copy anything, because I rarely buy a movie to begin with, but I vaguely remember reading the rules for this in my cable ready system that I bought in 2008 when the MPAA let only OEMs build such systems. My manual said I could copy movies downloaded by internet streaming to blu-ray, and copy DVDs and blu-ray protected content in my optical drive and store it in the hard drive or copy to another blu-ray\DVD.

HOWEVER! - This media center PC is a custom(CTO) destop cable ready system built to strict specifications that may not be in place now. Everything in the PC had to match the criteria for the DMCA as the state of the art for that time. This meant the following was true - all equipment in the machine had to be IAA compliant - including:

1. Bios
2. Media card module
3. HDMI graphics card
4. Blu-ray burner
5. Built in sound chip(no PCI or PCIe sound card allowed with digital optical or coax port)
6. TV tuner
7. MCard module and digital tuner
8. Special operating system(Vista Home Premium x64)
9. Special Media Center software module with built in DRM

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Legal vs Not legal

This reply here is the Exact answer and only answer you need> (THE SHORT ANSWER - New!
by webserf - 6/8/12 7:12 PM)

webserf is telling you fact's and truth. You can not even lend it to your very best friend or even your wife or your child or brother, It must stay in your possession. A back up copy is fine, but only and for you alone...be careful keep track of what you do with that back-up copy... Never take it to a yard sale or let your wife sell it at the yard sale. That's another serious legal matter.
Example: Our local sheriff dept for the first time ever --this year will have it's team of PC investigators going under cover to yard sales looking for such items like this. If they catch you they arrest you on the spot and sees anything/everything you have in way of computer crap and it falls under Reasonable cause or Probable cause to search your home without a warrant. So BE CAREFUL.

Remember:
keep this in the back of your mind. You Do Not Own your PC or any program you have, You Do Not Own any CD's or DVD's or Blu-ray. You merely pay the legal life time fee and right to view it and use it but you will NEVER in any way shape or form Own It. Got to read all that (fine written tiny printed material) folks. People click (Accept it) people see it but have you ever let your attorney read it? You Do Not Own It. Period.

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First Sale Doctrine
Jun 8, 2012 11:40PM PDT

I'd like to interject a wrinkle to what you said. The PC (physical hardware) you do own but I do agree with you that you do not own the content of the CD/DVD/Blu-ray. The ORIGINAL media is a license. A back up is a gray area; if used only for personal use, it would be legal.

However, the physical media itself is the license and can be disposed of in any manner you desire. Along with the DMCA, there was a case that involved the "First Sale Doctrine" which states that you can do whatever you want with the physical media. The case is [Vernor v. Autodesk inc.] where Vernor was selling his copies of AutoCAD. Autodesk claimed that his license did not allow that but the court held that Autodesk already received their due royalties for the legitimate copy and Vernor can sell or dispose of his legitimate copy which ever way he wants. This means they cannot tax the physical media (or license) more than once. This is codified in:

17 U.S.C.A. Section 109: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

BUT, this also means that once the copy is sold, there is no legitimate use for the back up and must be destroyed/erased. The license has left the media holder's hands.

This is important as gifts of CDs and movies would make the gift illegal. Even industry people wouldn't want that as sales would drastically drop then. The tricky part is the new downloadable media. You definitely do not own those and there is no physical representation of the license.

SO - IT IS OKAY to gift, lend and sell an ORIGINAL media. But you relinquish any right to it INCLUDING the back up.

P.S. as for Probable Cause, they may search your home without a warrant but they must have more than a sneaking suspicion. They must demonstrate the reasoning behind the warrant-less search.

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To add to that...
Jun 9, 2012 4:30AM PDT

My DRM enable media center lets me copy movies and music, and I can use these copies at my friends house, or my relatives, and I have no problems. BUT - the other out of home devices must also be completely DRM compliant, or the copy will not work. Apparently the blu-ray/DVD burner adds information to the encryption that literally identifies that as ONE legitimate copy, and that is all it will let me use.

Right now the DRM seems to be working flawlessly, but it was a nighmare during the last three years! Angry

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It is a Mess
Jun 8, 2012 6:43PM PDT

It is generally legal to make the copies you describe. What is illegal is the making and using of software to bypass copy protection. This is in the DMCA. So, finding software that will do it is a bit of a hassle, and you're technically breaking the law with most movies. But, probably so am I just telling you to research DVD decryption, and ISO and MKV file formats. Use VLC to play the rips.

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some people work for a living..
Jun 8, 2012 9:29PM PDT

many people can't afford that solution. So your suggestion is neither realistic or practical. Why do you think the big push is to make all video content go to streaming. As for software I woudl be without a computer if I hade to purchase multiple copies. I have to save for years to buy a new system let alone all the software that won't work on new operating system. So who are the true PIRATES!!!!. Greedy big bussiness and Sillywood..

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Don't worry about it
Jun 8, 2012 10:40PM PDT

Might be legal, might not. I'd not worry about it. No police spy on what you copy on your computer! I have copied dvd's, and parts of dvd's.

Software to do it is widely available and easy to obtain. Many people back up their dvd's.

What you need to worry about is illicit DOWNLOADING music and movies on the web; they actually have ways of catching you. You particularly have to worry if you use someone else's computer network; for instance, if you are a college student. Mind you, I hardly agree with such thinking, but people have been kicked out of college for downloading a few songs.

Of course if you were to make multiple copies and sell them, that would be piracy, and you might also get caught.

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Most DVD's are including a digital copy when you buy them
Jun 8, 2012 10:46PM PDT

Buy the DVD that includes a free digital copy and you will be all set.

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It's a fine line on the legality of it.
Jun 8, 2012 11:01PM PDT

In truth it is perfectly legal for you to make back up copies of anything for your own personal private use. That's the technicality of it. However the movie and record companies would love to make it illegal for you to do anything like that, they'd rather you just buy 2 copies of whatever title, always grubbing for more of your money. Personally I have almost every done in triplicate, especially my music, a copy on my PC's hard drive, a copy on a external hard drive back up, and the CD the music came on. Movies take up more space but it is not impossible to do something similar, but as I don't watch them as much I taken some and converted them into mp4 format for use on mp3 players or my PSP.

I back up DVDs with DVD Shrink, or DVD decrypter. Shrink copies DVDs as DVDs in .vob format. Decrypter allows you to copy DVDs into other formats. Combine with Any Video Converter you can make the video into an .avi .mpeg .mp4 or whatever.

Be aware the music and movie industry does not want you doing these things. But I say hell with them, I can do what I want with my copy as long as I'm not selling it. Or sharing it with strangers.

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You wouldn't back up books, why back up movies?
Jun 8, 2012 11:02PM PDT

I fully understand why people back up records or cd's. These are listened to over and over again. You don't buy one just to hear the story. Movies are different. They're like books. Lots of people have libraries of books. But they never make back up copies. Maybe that would be illegal, too, but who cares? One commenter said his dog sometimes chews up dvds. Well, what happens if you have a children's book, read it to your kid each night, and the dog chews it up? Tough luck. Either you buy a different book, or the same one again. Most people don't watch their movies over and over again. If there's a movie you really want to watch multiple times, fine, back it up, and forget the legality. No one is going to care. The only movies you REALLY need to back up are home movies, which actually ARE irreplaceable. And guess what? Backing them up is legal!

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Copying DVDs
Jun 9, 2012 12:12AM PDT

If you are buying a license to watch, shouldn't you be licensed to watch a copy ? Who made the copy is another matter, probably un-proveable.

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Actually, you are wrong
Jun 9, 2012 4:37AM PDT

If a book is very important to me I might back it up so that I can use it on my computer and leave the original on the shelf. A scanner can do this. I might also want a copy for my Kindle. This analogy is really not perfect anyway, but it isn't the way you say it is.

Also, why would I spend my money on movies that I do not intend to watch multiple times?

I might also point out that CD and DVD media are considerably more fragile than books. When you buy a book you expect it to last a lifetime, not just until it gets a scratch.

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Legal or illegal
Jun 9, 2012 12:19AM PDT

The same topic came up years ago when VCR's became popular. Sony complained that people were copying Sony movies. However, it was found that Sony couldn't have it both ways. Sony was making movies, then Sony would sell VCR's and then Sony would complain that people were copying movies with the VCR they just sold to them. The same thing happened with music when the cassette decks became popular and cheap enough for everybody to afford. The same happened with recordable CD's. If you don't want people to reproduce your product, then you shouldn't be in the business of selling the people the equipment whose sole purpose is to record your product. Needless to say they lost that case. This is different than the Napster phenominon where people were recording materials that they did not purchase.

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Software is licensed to the exact computer
Jun 9, 2012 1:11AM PDT

You are right, I think that you can sell your computer and the software licensed on it. You still don't own the software, it is licensed to your computer. Try changing your computer parts in a significant manner, you will have to call Microsoft to get an exception so your Operating System will run. I don't know if they track it or not, but I have had to do it when upgrading components. Since Vista, I have had Microsoft Office not work because it was licensed to a different computer that came with the software and disks. Also, notice that they don't send out the disks anymore.

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Yes you can but you may not! Thank Bill Gates
Jun 9, 2012 1:42AM PDT

I always fond it funny that most of the "computer" or Digital conundrums can be traced back to the birth of Microsoft, yet because of the size of the user base, people are reluctant to believe the facts. The reason you may not copy your DVD's CD's or Software unless specifically permitted to do so in writing by the owner is because of DOS. Gates sold DOS (which he did not write but which was freely available for anyone to use 0 just as most software of the day like Visicalc.) to IBM before he had purchased any rights from the actual author. In the contract Gates stipulated that IBM could not change ANY code or else the ownership of DOS reverted back to Microsoft and IBM would then have to lease the use of it for an additional fee. IBM was not savy enough to realize that changing the splash screen was a change in code and they changed M.S._D.O.S. to IBM DOS. Meanwhile Gates sent Balmer to Seattle and purchased DOS from teh actual author (owner) for a pittance compared to what IBM had paid him for it. Thus - we don't won ANY of this software or digital files like DVD's - we just have the right to use that ONE copy and the "purchase" is a bogus kind of lease. (note the "previously viewed" sales and the racks of DVDs in pawn shops.
Walmart is now making DVD copies of tapes. Some day I suppose they will offer the same thing for DVDs - to - Digital Files. Meanwhile you have to use all sorts of naughty means to cop them. It can be done, it is not that hard, but you don't have MY (or Bill Gates') permission to do it.

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Backing Up DVD and BD
Jun 9, 2012 2:41AM PDT

Unfortunately, Lee Koo has correctly summed it up in his introductory article on the subject. There was a time before the DMCA that you could make a backup copy of anything but now the digital recording industry lobbyists have successfully eroded all of your consumer rights to keep and backup copies of your DVD and BD discs even if the disc is not copy protected. The DMCA is plainly unfair for honest consumers but the digital recording industry has legitimate concerns of rampant piracy and distribution both domestically and internationally, especially in China, where piracy is actually allowed, for example, there is a street in Beijing that is devoted to nothing but the sale of counterfeit goods that local Chinese law enforcement simply ignores because the city collects huge tax revenues from these sales.

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Make Legal Copies
Jun 9, 2012 6:06AM PDT

Walmart advertised that if a person bought a blu-ray or DVD there is a way to make a digital copy. However, you had to have the original. They use some website to store it on. If you buy something like a movie, then basically you are receiving a license to play it or have access to the digital equivilent. Since when did Americans become slaves?

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The answer is always YES
Jun 9, 2012 7:07AM PDT

The reason is because no court has ever found someone guilty of this.

True, people who make copies and SELL them may have been found guilty, but the honest Joe Homeowner who has a copy of Windows 7 DVD because he may lose or scratch the original has never been convicted.

For artitstic content, ie, Movies & Music, this is where it gets trickier but the courts won't bust Joe Homeowner for copying the DVD "Monsters Inc" that he bought, but if he RENTED it and copied it, it becomes a different story.

Still, they're not breaking into homes like that YouTube vid that took the bloody home-invasion scene from "American Werewolf in London" and suggested the RIA is going to break in like this. The RIA is definitely heavy-handed, but they're looking at flea-markets and web-sites that share content, and not breaking into homes (yet).

So, like the saying "If a tree falls in a forest with nobody around...", if you have a copied DVD in your family room TV cabinet, "...it doesn't make a sound".
--Jim