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Resolved Question

Irregular Memory Issue with recently built PC

Apr 18, 2015 11:33AM PDT

I've been having 'Memory Management' BSOD showing up since I built my PC around 2 months ago. As well as occasionally 'Page Fault' BSOD and others related to memory corruption.

After receiving these errors I've performed tests using the Microsoft Memory Diagnostic tool, and MemTest86 and they've come back with hardware issues within the first few seconds.

However, after having the computer turned off for a while, to try the RAM in a different slot configuration, or just to slam my head repeatedly against the wall, a second memory test reports no errors with the RAM whatsoever. I have run tests over 16 hours with absolutely no errors shown.
I have since reformatted my system due to corrupted system files, and have yet to receive a BSOD. I am however expecting one as I have performed a diagnostic test and received a hardware issue. After further messing around I have thankfully found out how to recreate this issue, and clear it, but not the root cause.

This is how I can cause a memory test to show a hardware issue:

1) Have Windows running, all startup software running etc.
2) Shut down the system through the start menu option or the power button on the front of the PC.
3) After the system has shut down immediately start it back up again and allow windows to boot.
4) Start Microsoft's Memory Diagnostic test, allowing it to restart the computer.

This is how I can clear this issue resulting in a memory test completing several passes with no errors:

1) After the previous diagnostic test completes with errors, shut down the computer.
2) Leave it off for several minutes.
3) Boot Windows and start Microsoft's Memory Diagnostic test, allowing it to restart the computer.

After significant searching on tech forums I have failed to find anyone that has a similar issue. Does anyone know what the root cause of this may be? Could the memory be set-up incorrectly or could it be due to the power supply? My system details are as follows:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4590
Motherboard: ASRock B85M-Pro4
Memory: 8G Kit 1600 Patriot Signature Line CAS 11
GPU: Gigabyte R9 290 4GB
PSU: Fractal Design Integra M 550W
OS: Windows 8.1 fully updated

Discussion is locked

justin89h has chosen the best answer to their question. View answer

Best Answer

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Since no one has seen this issue?
Apr 18, 2015 11:41AM PDT

That's rare and points to a hardware issue. Remember that while I've seen this error on the web and in the shop, you may be asking for a fix that doesn't involve RMAs. Maybe if the BIOS is old or there is overclocking?
Bob

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Thanks for the reply
Apr 18, 2015 11:56AM PDT

The bios was updated when I first built the computer so is at the latest version available. There is no overclock set. The bios is set at all default settings. (UEFI)

If I need to RMA the memory or the power supply, which I feel are the most likely suspects, I can. I'd just like to confirm they're definitely the issue before paying for postage and being without a PC for a few weeks.

I was going to RMA the memory but the fact that I CAN perform several passes over 16 hours with no errors indicates to me that the problem may lay elsewhere.

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I can't guess why the PSU is suspect.
Apr 18, 2015 2:59PM PDT

It looks like a single rail with enough spare Watts to avoid trouble. To me this would be CPU, MB and or RAM.
Bob

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Just a guess on my part
Apr 18, 2015 5:12PM PDT

I don't have much indepth knowledge about how memory is controlled but is there a chance that due to power not completely draining out of the system, the motherboard or CPU is still accessing the ram in some manner and corrupts it when the system boots back up?

Would this point to the memory controller on the CPU having an issue clearing the ram after power-down correctly?

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Further testing
Apr 18, 2015 5:50PM PDT

I've done some further testing which I should probably have done as soon as I figured out how to recreate the problem.

I managed to recreate the problem with just a single 4GB stick in slot one. After recreating it, I swapped over the stick to the other one and managed to recreate the problem on that one as well.

After that I booted the computer with just a single 4GB stick in slot 3 and manged to recreate the problem with that one as well.

Every time I tested I verified the ram passed (a single pass) with no errors, before a quick shutdown and bootup, followed by a second test with errors after a few seconds

As it would be unlikely for both sticks of RAM to have the same issue I believe this discounts the RAM as being the root cause? Same with the slots on the motherboard.

Does this mean the CPU's memory controller is the most likely suspect? If this is the case it would be somewhat difficult to explain and receive an RMA so would someone be able to confirm this with a better explanation? or offer an alternative?

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Just an addition
Apr 18, 2015 5:54PM PDT

I'll add as well that following a memory test with errors shown on just a single 4GB stick, Windows had significant trouble booting, flashing a BSOD, offering system repair options, or running for just a few seconds. One time it appeared the computer failed to even POST.

So once this hardware issue comes about it appears to render the RAM close to completely unusable.

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Other sources...
Apr 19, 2015 12:38AM PDT

While ram issues are certainly come about due to actual memory sticks, that is NOT the only area it can happen. The other places are the cpu and mtrbd. themselves. The overall operation when the whole ram cycle is included where I thought any tech or user can access or test at such lower levels w/o special tools. Your testing suggests that while the ram *MAYBE* good at other times it isn't. Which leads to my post. Either, you got some flaky ram sticks or the other areas I offered are too picky with that ram or have yet uncovered some issue not known or a minor toxic mix at work. Just ship back whatever you want in one whole sweep, thus I recommend mtrbd. cpu and ram. If you want, then just buy another matched set of ram sticks and see if that resolves your issue. Alas, if you brought on the cheap, then you got the cheap results. If you bios allows it, try a voltage increase of at least .01, then .02V(max) over the default and see if that settles the issue.

tada -----Willy Happy

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That's not a bad idea.
Apr 19, 2015 1:15AM PDT

But I wonder if folk today will dive into memory specs and compare supply V and such to see if they can jigger it to work with those sticks?

Also in a year they may reset the BIOS and be right back to where they are now. Then in 4 years they sell it off to someone and blammo, it fails again.

My vote is to change parts to what works together with the stock settings.
Bob

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This and that BSOD
Apr 19, 2015 12:08AM PDT

OK, try this. Read user reviews on your motherboard model on newegg and such. Sometimes you find folk that had issues. We don't care if it's the exact set of events. But to me this is starting to sound like the motherboard.

I know folk want to nail it but in the shop we swap boards pretty fast as shop time > board cost.
Bob

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A few
Apr 19, 2015 6:14AM PDT

A couple people have written reviews containing an issue with the ram slots http://www.newegg.com/FeedBack/CustratingAllReview.aspx?DEPA=0&N=40000280&Order=0&Pagesize=&Keywords=ASRock+B85M+Pro4&Page=2

Basically it looks like the Channel A slots have issues on some boards. I did do a test with a stick in slot 3 so I doubt this is the issue with mine, but I will do another test tonight to be sure.

If it gets to that point I will change parts but to avoid unnecessary expense I would like to do as much testing and fault finding possible beforehand. I don't have any spare parts, so anything I try to replace I would have to wait to RMA or purchase.

Do they tend to replace what you send in for warranty even if it passes their testing?

Thanks for your help!

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To test and fault find.
Apr 19, 2015 6:31AM PDT

We swap same for same parts or if we see complaints we change models. No need to repeat the problems.

As to what RMA does, I don't work for them so I can't answer.
Bob

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Another test
Apr 19, 2015 7:02AM PDT

Did another test with a 4GB stick in Slot 4 with same result showing hardware errors after a quick second boot

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Have you checked the BIOS settings for the RAM...esp the
Apr 19, 2015 1:21PM PDT

timing and the voltage ?

Might also try memtest86+ for the RAM. MS is OK but I'd rather use the product that's been around for years and years and well tested.

Have you CONTACTED the reseller or TECH SUPPORT for any of the products ?

Keep us posted.

VAPCMD

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The timing and voltage
Apr 19, 2015 7:34PM PDT

For the Patriot Signature Line, they recommend just using the Auto settings on the bios, which is what I've had it set to for the last few days.

Prior to that I have attempted to set the voltage manually to 1.50 and the timing to the CAS 11 spread provided in the bios settings. (What the signature line is apparently suited to)

As well, I have attempted to raise voltage to 1.55 and 1.60 from the suggestions provided to people in similar situations.

Any of these settings have resulted in no change to the issues I've experienced. However I'm not used to setting RAM timings and voltage manually so I may have missed something. (Thus, the detail)

I have done a couple tests with Memtest but have just gotten in the habit of using the MS option for convenience as the error is so easy to find.

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(NT) How about trying Patriot ?
Apr 20, 2015 9:10AM PDT
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Also
Apr 20, 2015 5:52AM PDT

I haven't contacted the reseller or tech support yet as they tend to be a pain to deal with in my experience so I'd like to know everything about the problem I possible can.
Hopefully that way I can just explain the issue, explain I how I narrowed it down, and be able to send it in for warranty.

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No ... I suggested contacting Patriot, the RAM MFG.
Apr 21, 2015 9:37AM PDT

Nothing to lose by doing that.

VAPCMD

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Answer
maybe hyberfile problem in W8
Apr 19, 2015 12:46PM PDT

Turn off "Fast Boot" so it does a full shutdown and cold boot each time. Yeah, you may have to wait an extra 10-30 seconds for the boot, but is that so bad considering the other problems? Sounds like you have an intermittent problem with a stick of RAM and you've already noted that yourself, but until you are convinced of it for yourself, doing cold boots might keep things working better in the interim.

LOL, that's funny, they hide the UEFI admission down in the bottom area on the page, not even mentioned in the top part. The closest is the "windows ready 8.1" icon.

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Fastboot
Apr 19, 2015 8:12PM PDT

Fastboot is already disabled in the bios. Still boots in something like 5 seconds because of the SSD.

I'm not sure it would have anything to do with hibernation. It occurs on a full shutdown, I can even turn off the switch on the back of the power supply. As long as I boot it back up within a few seconds it will cause an error to show when testing the ram.

After further testing I can vouch for the fact that it requires at least a full minute with the power off to be able to be booted without causing errors. Possibly more then 2.

I have also undertaken some further tests under the recommendation of another forum, testing the CPU with 'Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool' which came back with all passes. (This appears to stress test the memory controller as part of its tests)
Tonight, I also swapped out the power supply with the one from my rather old DDR2 system. The issues still occurred with the memory. (Exact same process as before)

At this stage its looking most likely to be the motherboard with a problem.

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Unrelated find with related information
Apr 20, 2015 6:13PM PDT

Was searching around a bit more on the net and found this:

http://superuser.com/questions/464297/wipe-ram-on-shut-down-to-prevent-cold-boot-attack

The research mentioned seems to indicate that old types of RAM stored data for up to five minutes after system shutdown. But new types of RAM are meant to lose voltage after only a couple seconds as a security measure.

This might be related as if there is a fault in whatever component is responsible for controlling voltage to the ram, which causes data to stay in the memory for a few minutes after shutdown, this could get corrupted on a second boot-up.

Thoughts? Am I on completely the wrong track? What is responsible for controlling voltage to the RAM?

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???
Apr 20, 2015 11:40PM PDT
"Thoughts? Am I on completely the wrong track? What is responsible for controlling voltage to the RAM?"

Electricity
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Voltage???
Apr 21, 2015 7:50AM PDT

The bios does all that but it defers to the circuitry that actually does. The ram works within its voltage limits as provided which is why I offered a voltage in case that's an issue. Further, when shutting OFF the PC, the capacitors provided a limited source of juice until they drain as has always been the case. You may notice that if your power LED glows for a short while until that power truly is drained. The same for the internal LED on most mtrbds. that glow until the AC cord is pulled, you WILL SEE it glow until juice is all drained. But, the actual control of voltage is the bios as it provides what it should be, if not within a certain level, it errors. That maybe the case as you suggest you re-power fairly quickly, it sees a "surge" which is over the required voltage level. That's a WAG in my part, but as some posts offer just return any part or all, you may have a picky or flasky setup combo.

tada -----Willy Happy

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Decision time
Apr 25, 2015 6:57PM PDT

I've decided to call either ASRock or Patriot Tech Support, go through the issue with them in case there's something I've missed. After that I'll probably end up sending back the motherboard under warranty as it seems to be the most likely suspect.

Will probably do this in a month or so after I've finished playing GTA V though, because as long as I start it up in the correct way the system runs with no issues.

Thanks for all your advice Happy

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Ok...we'll be looking forward to the conclusion. Might
Apr 26, 2015 1:40AM PDT

consider trying both mfgs....nothing to lose.

VAPCMD

PS..Looking at the buyer reviews on Newegg concerns me esp the comments about RAM slots and ASRock Customer Support.