Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

Interesting documentary about America and the Porn industry...

Feb 5, 2004 3:12PM PST

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
Re:It was very interesting Charlie. I just watched the videos. (nt)
Feb 5, 2004 9:36PM PST

.

- Collapse -
I think so too!
Feb 6, 2004 6:04PM PST

I haven't been aware of the show before, but happened to see it the other day and found it very good!

Do you usually watch "Frontline"?

I try to watch 60 minutes and Dateline, but never knew about "Frontline" unfortunately. They may have had some very good documentaries in the past.

- Collapse -
Re:Interesting documentary about America and the Porn industry...
Feb 5, 2004 9:43PM PST

Isnt "involvement" putting it mildly? I thought that the point was that these two companies have the highest income from porno making Mr.Flynt look like a beginner!

It was a very enlightening experience. It seems that like most pimps, those in the industry ,have their "performers" so bamboozled they arent aware they are being exploited!

- Collapse -
Re: Interesting documentary about America and the Porn industry...
Feb 5, 2004 10:18PM PST

Hi, Charlie.

This is just capitalism in action -- giving the customers what they want. The implications of the headlines are that large companies are involved in the production of porn, and there's no evidence of that in the report.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
Do I detect a desire for censorship? What would the ACLU say?
Feb 6, 2004 12:11AM PST

'This is just capitalism in action -- giving the customers what they want'

Presumably you favor some other economic system which would not allow this to happen?

- Collapse -
Did you hurt yourself making that stretch? nt
Feb 6, 2004 12:30AM PST

.

- Collapse -
So, Dave is praising capitalism,
Feb 6, 2004 3:51AM PST

for serving up porn? He's condemning freedom for producing porn? What do you think he's trying to say?

- Collapse -
Re:Do I detect a desire for censorship? No, you don't
Feb 6, 2004 3:40AM PST

Hi, KP.

What you detect is my continuing amazement about how you folks twist your principles depending on what issue is being discussed. You're all for the right to life -- except, of course, when it's adult lives that are affected (death penalty, life-saving stem cell research). You're all for the free market system -- except when what's being sold involves sexuality in any way shape or form. Etc., etc.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
So far you've accused me of a desire for justice and morality. I plead
Feb 6, 2004 3:45AM PST

guilty as charged. Are there any other charges I can plead to?

- Collapse -
Swallowing an entire concept...
Feb 6, 2004 9:37AM PST

Maybe for not being able to see the negative sides of Capitalism. It is not an almighty system KP. But you, as well as many others in this country (especially in DC) seem to defend the current economic system with tooth and nail.
I assume you know how rotten the porn industry is and what kind of message it usually sends out about women. Do you agree with that message? Do you think there are drugs involved in the porn industry? Do you think there is prostitution involved? Do you think there is a lot of illegal money circulating between the hands of the porn industry? GM and AT&T - companies that I am sure more than one of the fellow members here are shareholders of - are supporting these activities by allowing the TV Networks that they own, to show movies from the pornographic industry. These are probably enough causes to question the Capitalist system and not just swallow the entire concept?

PS. No, I am not saying that those who are shareholders of GM and AT&T are guilty of anything. Most of them are probably unaware of what kind of activities their invested money goes to?

- Collapse -
Not able to find anything good about the US?
Feb 6, 2004 10:32AM PST

Isn't that what you mean?

"Maybe for not being able to see the negative sides of Capitalism. "

I'm sure you can enlighten us. It's your mission to teach the US citizens about all that is wrong with our country isn't it? After all, I'm sure Sweden allows no pornography or anything so disgusting within it's borders.

And I'm sure all of Europe has learned to never be aroused by anything since they're so sophisticated that nudity doesn't rate any notice there, wherever and whenever it occurs.

"I assume you know how rotten the porn industry is and what kind of message it usually sends out about women. "

I'm not sure what you mean, since it's perfectly normal for a man to stand in front of millions tv viewers and rip the clothes of a woman's breast. Everyone was suppose to accept that as nothing weren't they? Afterall, it was just a breast. Nothing to notice that it was a simulated sexual assault. No reason to be upset about not rating the Superbowl as a R rated showing, no one under 17 allowed to watch.

roger

- Collapse -
Don't even go there Roger... Part 1.
Feb 6, 2004 11:25AM PST
"After all, I'm sure Sweden allows no pornography or anything so disgusting within it's borders." - RogerNC

That much of the crap comes from Sweden? True, but not completely. Usually Swedish citizens that are registered in a foreign country, like Bert Milton, who is registered in Barcelona, Spain, since he wouldn't be able to expand his business in Sweden. That Sweden is pioneer when it comes to pornography? Very possible, but the past is one thing and present a very different.
Much crap is going on in Sweden too regarding pornography and low morals? True. But let me know if there is a bigger producer of pornography than Hollywood's porn industry. I doubt you can find it. The documentary that I linked to is pretty clear in this matter. Playboy, Hustler and others are the biggest ones. And they are not Swedish.
Many of the bigger Swedish Hotel chains have started to boycott the porn channels simply because it gave them a bad reputation since the population in general are aware of what the porn industry is about. (The same thing goes for environmentally good products that are favored instead of those that harm it. This just to show that it sells to be morally correct in Sweden, which doesn't mean that all that are NOT morally correct don't sell!).
- Collapse -
Good for Sweden, but don't blame the US.
Feb 6, 2004 12:34PM PST

It's good if Sweden is cleaning up its act, but don't lay Hollywood at my feet. I don't support them, and most Americans don't either. It is a liberal court system that is forcing a lot of this on us, and we, as a nation, have not yet figured out how to defeat this court system. Many here defend this trash, and fight tooth and nail to keep it from being suppressed.

- Collapse -
Who is to blame?
Feb 6, 2004 2:28PM PST
"but don't blame the US" - Kiddpeat

and then you write "It is a liberal court system that is forcing a lot of this on us, and we, as a nation, have not yet figured out how to defeat this court system. Many here defend this trash, and fight tooth and nail to keep it from being suppressed." - Kiddpeat

So who should I blame? I understand that the liberals are more open to sexuality, but I doubt they are more open to degradation of women and I also doubt that they are more open to a market that allows these "companies" to operate without restrictions. And IF they are, there is a point that I strongly disagree with. I have no problem being critical to any side of the political scale...
- Collapse -
Charlie, the program made the answer clear.
Feb 7, 2004 8:12AM PST

The lid was taken off by Bill Clinton and Janet Reno. Although they speak for the liberal community, they don't speak for the American people who ultimately rejected Bill Clinton. Bill was more sympathetic to communism than he was to the US (he toured Russia while protesting the Vietnaam War, and he gave American missile technology to communist China).

- Collapse -
Hmmm, I didn't go anywhere, did you?
Feb 6, 2004 7:49PM PST

"That much of the crap comes from Sweden? "

Nothing I said. I was sarcastic about there being no pornography there, since almost anywhere in the world there is people there is pornography of some kind.

Hollywood certainly produces is share of crap, no doubt about it. Not sure how much legally classified as porn comes out of Hollywood itself, but porn is a huge business in America, JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD.

And still I see nothing you like about the US? please, it would cheer a lot of us up I know to find that we weren't totally a nation of denegerates and captalist pigs.

roger

- Collapse -
Twist and Shout...
Feb 6, 2004 8:08PM PST

It's 40 years ago since The Beatles made it to the USA.
That doesn't mean however that you have to twist the subject. I provided a link about the porn industry in the USA from a documentary that I saw. THAT is the subject here Roger...

- Collapse -
Re:Twist and Shout... A good rythmn beat there.
Feb 6, 2004 8:13PM PST

Hmmm, the subject is all over the place.

Which is normal here.

So now we must restrict it?

Oh wait, I forgot, most of Speakeasy must be so old and their faculites so enfeebled that they can't understand the situation if they don't agree with those that say when they should and shouldn't care.

roger

- Collapse -
Don't even go there Roger... Part 2.
Feb 6, 2004 11:25AM PST

That Sweden is a liberal country when it comes to sexuality? Yes, definitely. But sexuality is one thing and pornography a very different. You have movies made exclusively to look down on women and movies where love and care is shown, however not in every detail as is the case with the porn movies.
There is NO company from the porn industry at the Stockholm Stock market and if you are able to find ONE, please let me know.
Is Sweden perfect? Definitely not. Sweden is a Capitalist society that has a lot of bad sides to it too. One of the worst things is the fact that it is a Monarchy! An old, undemocratic form of ruling that makes me sick and I wish they would turn the society into a Republic just as the USA.

- Collapse -
Re:Don't even go there Roger... Part 2.
Feb 6, 2004 7:53PM PST

"Sweden is a Capitalist society that has a lot of bad sides to it too."

Is there anything good you can say about capitalism? I realize you didn't say it was all bad, but I've not seen anything you liked.

"An old, undemocratic form of ruling that makes me sick and I wish they would turn the society into a Republic just as the USA."

Well I'm glad something here is at least slightly better than elsewhere in the world. Although I'm really surprised that statement there wasn't a dozen but .... should be changed.


roger

- Collapse -
Oh come on Charlie! Sweden is leading edge when it comes to
Feb 7, 2004 8:16AM PST

nudity and porn! Do you pretend that one can dabble in nudity without eventually winding up with porn? Get real!

- Collapse -
Re:Not able to find anything good about the US?
Feb 7, 2004 3:39AM PST
The emergence of a huge and ever-expanding American porn industry potently illustrates that America is following the course outlined by Huxley and pioneered by Sweden. The reigning "godfather" of America's porn industry is a figure who bridges the worlds of hard-core smut and collectivist social engineering.

Sweden, the Netherlands and other European countries like Denmark, Germany and Belgium, do not regulate the porn industry at all and do not report sex crimes like the U.S. does -- incest, date rape, sex with underage participants, public nudity or even pedophile activity. In fact, there are publications in Europe (sold openly at news stands all over Stockholm that I will attest to) that prominently promote pedophilia.

Sweden is a nice place to be FROM and if you leave on one or two of the countrys arilines you can even watch inflight movies not available to TWA patrons.
- Collapse -
Certainly you must believe that prostitution persecution is unfair.
Feb 6, 2004 10:32AM PST

"Do you think there is prostitution involved?"

Well if you define that as taking sex for money, every show actually showing a real sex act with paid actors is prostitution isn't it? But after all, we're told all the time that it's outdated and wrong to make prostitution illegal. Why criminalize a victimless activity afterall.

"Do you think there is a lot of illegal money circulating between the hands of the porn industry?" Well since it's often (by progressive standards) unjustly outlawed by progressive standards the money has to be illegal doesn't it. So everyone that works for or invest in GM and ATT should be locked up. And everyone that supports them by using any of their products.

BTW, have a nice weekend, hope you get to visit a nude beach in NY.


roger

- Collapse -
Frankly, I don't think porn is unique to capitalism. I think it exists in all
Feb 6, 2004 12:27PM PST

economic systems; capitalism, socialism, communism, etc. It seems more open in our society, but I think that has more to do with liberalism than capitalism. It's our liberal courts which have allowed porn to openly flourish, and its the liberal mentality which has given it its 'respectability'. As I said once before, I think one of the driving forces behind liberalism is the desire for sexual freedom which, by necessity, includes pornography. Do I approve of porn? Of course not! It enslaves everyone who gets involved with it from producers to customers. Do I support those who profit from it? No, but sometimes I have no choice. After all, if I want a computer magazine, I have to buy it from, for example, Borders. I can't fight its pervasiveness to that extent. BTW, I do not patronize either GM or AT&T.

Capitalism supports individual freedom. It is the best system so far devised for improving human welfare, and raising the standard of living for all. Both socialism and communism are miserable failures in these areas. Recent history has proved that. Since capitalism involves freedom, the freedom can be misused, but that doesn't condemn the concept.

- Collapse -
Re: Frankly, I don't think porn is unique to capitalism. I think it exists in all
Feb 6, 2004 12:32PM PST

Hi, KP.

>>BTW, I do not patronize either GM or AT&T.<<
Great. How about hotels that have "adult channels" on the movie menu? Again, it's a matter of choice. I patronize the hotel, but I don't order the movie.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
Gee Dave, I thought that's what I said.
Feb 6, 2004 12:42PM PST

'No, but sometimes I have no choice. After all, if I want a computer magazine, I have to buy it from, for example, Borders. I can't fight its pervasiveness to that extent.' In other words, sometimes I do have to stay in the hotel.

- Collapse -
Capitalism vs. Communism part 1.
Feb 6, 2004 1:35PM PST
"I do not patronize either GM or AT&T. - Kiddpeat

Do you know where the money that you put into funds and pension funds goes? They may as well be invested into these companies. The same goes for me and everybody else who saves money in the USA and in the WORLD (yes, even in Sweden). You don't know where your bank has invested your money that you have there. Neither do I when it comes to my money.

"Capitalism supports individual freedom. It is the best system so far devised for improving human welfare, and raising the standard of living for all." - Kiddpeat

It's a question of opinions. But I can almost assure you that the majority or at least many, many people in the Eastern Europe had a better life under the Communist regimes. In Russia there was nobody who froze to death as there is now among the homeless for example. I know that many people in Poland think they had a better life before. The communist parties in these countries are also pretty big. Much bigger than I though they could even become, but many people are sick and tired of the corruption and the Capitalist system. In the Soviet Union not many things were to buy. Now they have it all, but nobody apart from the Mafia can buy them goods!
Militarism, environmental damage, controlling the population etc were all things that definitely were bad and horrible with the former Communist societies.
- Collapse -
Re:Capitalism vs. Communism part 1.
Feb 6, 2004 8:10PM PST

"But I can almost assure you that the majority or at least many, many people in the Eastern Europe had a better life under the Communist regimes."

That doesn't agree with what I read in the past. Although in Russia now there is much that isn't what ideals would be. Homeless, even most importantly in bad weather, totally shelterless, is a real problem around the world. Unfortunately that is even true here in the US. And our government officials of both political parties make speeches but do little about it.

How recently are you speaking of as far as the people thinking they were better off under communism? There were a lot of deaths of the poor back then too I bet. It's hard to belive that a majority of all those that use to live under communism and now don't believe they were better off then. I won't say it's impossible, but iit's difficult to imagine. Of course, things have been declining after an initial period of improvement I guess.

"... many people are sick and tired of the corruption and the Capitalist system. "

Corruption is a problem in any system. And if people are suffering, they're going to blame whatever is in place in the now. Present suffering rarely will seem less than distant past suffering, it's immediate and much more demanding than a memory. I'm not sure capitalism, unfettered or restricted, had much to work with when the USSR collapsed.

Yeah, I know, the US has had much longer to perfect corruption hasn't it? there isn't enough good left in our system to save is there? we should just let those that pontificate on saving the poor tell us everything we should do.

roger

- Collapse -
You have never been to Russia nor Poland then have you.
Feb 7, 2004 2:43AM PST

because had you you would be aware of the vast numbers of homeless beggars in Russia under communism and of the many who froze to death every winter.

You would be aware of the number of Polish citizens who were able to migrate into areas where they could work at what they wanted rather than what the state decided on for them. Most are much happier under their new Capitalism and won't hesitate to tell you that.

Most citizens of ALL the countries in the Soviet Bloc enjoy the freedom to sell to and converse with foreigners without having to worry about a party line and informants regarding their profiteering.

- Collapse -
Charlie, it's easy to prove your point based on assumptions, but
Feb 7, 2004 8:33AM PST

it gets tougher when reality intrudes. I know where my 'funds' are, and they aren't in AT&T or GM. I have no control over what my employer invests HIS pension funds in. They don't enter into my control unless I take a lump sum distribution from the pension plan. I also don't know what decisions my employer has made about where those funds are currently invested, and NEITHER DO YOU. It's silly to assume that they are invested in AT&T or GM, and, even if they were, your link made it clear that both AT&T and GM have divested themselves of a porn link.

The REASON the people of eastern Europe and Russia are experiencing shortages is that their economy crashed and burned. They are still trying to implement capitalism, but it is not clear that they have yet done so. Even capitalism does not allow an economy to 'turn on a dime'. It takes time, and more than just an economic system.