Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

Resolved Question

intel iMac startup fails

Dec 5, 2011 11:34AM PST

Anyone who really KNOWS Apple OS-X will nail this - it's classic and uncomplicated.
>> new iMac 21.5, 10.6.7 94 days old.

I get the grey screen, the spinning gear, and eventually the circle/bar.I did all the things other forums suggest: PRAM, safe boot, checked the disk and permissions in Disk Utility, AHT says OK. Will not even start off FW drive in Lion.
I was trying to reset permissions one day and it started giving me error messages. Hundreds of them.
If I reload 10.6.7 it runs fine. restarts fine. Power off = no power on. Please!!

Discussion is locked

spanf has chosen the best answer to their question. View answer

Best Answer

- Collapse -
Sounds to me
Dec 5, 2011 10:25PM PST

Sounds to me like you've got a HDD in the very early stages of failure, though the fact it won't boot off a FW drive is a bit curious. Still, it's possible that while accessing the FW drive, the 10.6 install corrupted it.

So, I'd agree that it's time to take it somewhere to get it looked at. AHT is just this side of useless, especially for HDD related issues. All it does is check to see if there's a SMART failure. Out of the maybe 3-4 dozen HDDs I've replaced in my time, I can probably still count on one hand the number that have had a SMART failure that would be picked up by AHT.

Take the thing somewhere where they have the big boy toys for diagnosing units. Any AASP or Apple retail store will work. If it's under warranty, it won't matter which place you take it to, Apple will be picking up the tab.

- Collapse -
Apple service in Brazil
Dec 6, 2011 8:17AM PST

Well, I'm gonna wait and see how it behaves.
I've seen your posts before, Jimmy. You sounded pretty savvy. But the FW no-go is an odd factor that doesn't fit in (as you allowed). Your idea is definitely on my list, but it'd cost me about 150 US and two full days off work to see that through.

- Collapse -
I'm not positive about Brazil
Dec 6, 2011 10:32AM PST

I'm not positive about Brazil, but if you figure out how much it would cost you to get the AppleCare plan, then at least in the US you have the option of them sending someone to you. So if you do the math, that might be the cheaper option, and you can always call Apple's Brazil line to verify that in-home visits are covered. In the US you can usually find iMac APP (AppleCare Protection Plan) for ~$120US, sometimes a bit less. I think Apple sells it for roughly $150 full retail (they obviously discount it for resellers). Assuming you can find something similar in Brazil (and Apple's warranty is good worldwide, I'm just figuring the shipping costs from some US reseller, if they'll even do international shipping, would probably eat up most/all of the savings) it's definitely something I'd look into.

Now, on the FW drive bit, are you saying it won't boot off the FW drive because you can't connect it to the system, or that when you select the FW drive from the list while holding down the Option key at boot, it fails to load? If it's just that the port doesn't seem right, it might just be a simple case of you needing to get a FW400-FW800 adapter cable. The 09 and later iMacs only have FW800 ports, they dropped the 400. FW400 ports look kind of like a tunnel for a road. Flat on one side, then rounded on top. FW800 ports are squarish, with a notch on one side. You can just use google's image search to find actual pictures and compare them with what you see.

And Unix is actually quite a bit more helpful in tracking down exactly what it is you're looking for, you just have to know how to read the log files. That takes time, determination, and a whole lot of patience. There's almost nothing that happens on a Unix system that isn't logged SOMEWHERE.

In any case, it really does kind of sound like you've got a hardware issue, and there's no software fix for that. I actually have had one system come in to me at work with symptoms pretty similar to yours IIRC. It was a while ago, but I seem to recall the thing passed all diagnostic tests, but was still having issues booting, even after I installed a fresh OS. I worked with some of Apple's people, and we both came to the conclusion that the drive must be in a very early stage of failure. Not so far gone it can't pass a diagnostic, but still far enough gone to cause problems. It's exceedingly rare to catch it this early, but it does happen. So I'd look into the APP idea, and if that doesn't pan out, maybe you know someone trustworthy who could take the unit in to the nearest repair shop for you.

- Collapse -
Lord Greystoke, you have a lot of input on my dying iMac
Dec 7, 2011 4:05AM PST

I really appreciate it. It's all educational for me, I'm obsolete.

- Collapse -
Sorry to barge in
Dec 7, 2011 8:03AM PST

but since you have a backup and Lion install DVD (if not it is easy to make one), can you just erase the hard drive and install Lion? If it works, must be software, if not, then Jimmy is right and it should go back to the source for a replacement.
Good luck!

- Collapse -
wipe the drive and install Lion
Dec 7, 2011 10:21AM PST

Well, I might have to go along with this, although I won't give up Snow Leopard, because all my expensive software would be useless.
It just seems illogical that software OTHER than system-ware could get in the way of a boot-up, because the OS shouldn't be looking at anything outside yet - not until it's finished booting, and even then an unlaunched piece of software should have no effect.
PLUS it will not launch from my FW drive (or restart) when I hook that up.

- Collapse -
just a naive idea
Dec 7, 2011 10:45AM PST

What if you start in single user mode? And do you have AppleJack by any chance?

- Collapse -
I hear you about software
Dec 7, 2011 10:46AM PST

Cost me over $500 to upgrade to Lion...

- Collapse -
Interesting
Dec 7, 2011 9:37AM PST

Interesting... Getting a large number of permission corrections isn't really a big deal in and of itself, but if things hit the fan pretty much immediately after, it makes me think there's a bad sector or two on the drive, and just by dumb luck, some important files happen to be sitting on them.

One thing you can try doing, is once you get the external booted, is run a repair disk operation on the internal. If it just gives up part-way through, that's almost always a guaranteed HDD replacement in my experience.

Oh, also, it just occurred to me that there's a recall program with certain brand HDDs in the 2011 iMacs. Want to say Samsung, or Seagate, but I'd have to go back and double check, same as the specifics of the recall program, but I do remember it involved reimbursement for AASPs to transfer user's data. Depending on how long your unit may have been sitting in some warehouse somewhere, it may have one of these affected drives. Pretty sure that was a public recall program, as I know I saw it reported on one or two tech news sites, so you might be able to find out details yourself.

Also, if power outages are common, I would expect that the condition of the power when it's up isn't all that great. Probably lots of nice chunky spikes coming down the line, followed by dips that aren't quite enough that the capacitors in the PSU can't compensate to keep the unit running, but this sort of thing can be murder on any sensitive electronics (such as a computer). So, longer term, you should also consider investing in a good UPS unit that can condition the line and also give you a chance to shut the unit down gracefully if the power goes out. Investing a couple hundred US into a decent UPS will likely mean that you don't have a much more expensive logic board failure or something once the unit is out of warranty. That would probably be about half the cost of a new unit before labor, and having to take two days off work, etc. This is all applies regardless of everything else. Anything you have that would be a pretty big financial burden to have to replace (or you may not even be able to afford to replace right away) you should probably think about protecting with a UPS. Just never connect a laser printer to a UPS, even if it's not a battery backed outlet.

- Collapse -
response to Jimmy: HD recalls & UPS idea
Dec 7, 2011 10:43AM PST

Permissions have always been mystical (and irritating) to me. And before it went bonkers it was not letting me access the FW because I did not have authorization (sorry. I just remembered) So I went after the permissions, but first I tried to regain ownership and unlock the padlock down in the corner of Get Info. I thought some more and then figured I'd try the "apply changes to all items" to the left.

- Collapse -
I understand
Dec 7, 2011 10:23PM PST

I understand the reluctance to try and salvage an OS install you've put a lot of time and effort into, but sometimes you just need to take a step back and consider how long it would take you to start over from scratch vs how much time you're spending trying to salvage things and not getting anywhere. I usually limit myself to a couple hours, and if I'm not making any headway, figure I'm likely better off just starting over. At this point you've probably spent a couple of days, off and on, working on this, just based on the posting history here, and don't seem to have made any real progress. I'd say a complete format and reinstall is definitely in order just to be sure it's not an OS issue. I would also advise being slow about adding in programs, in case things go pear shaped after a day or two. Start with just the bare minimum of apps you need for say the next 3-4 days. If by Monday things still seem to be working as they should, you can start adding in a couple more apps, then just rinse and repeat every few days. That way, if things blow up suddenly, you can suspect that there might be some issue with the last batch of programs you installed, and then test those one by one. This is the tedious and boring part of being a tech, that most people never see, but all good techs basically follow the scientific method which you may vaguely remember from high school science class. Isolate, test, and if that doesn't solve it, move on to the next thing and repeat until solved. That way, when we see the same issue again, we can look brilliant by just pulling a magic answer out of thin air.

As for Tech Tool... Never used it myself, but what I can say is this: I work at what is effectively a depot repair facility where units are coming in from various places around the US. I handle all the Apple stuff that comes through there. Usually before some unit gets to me, someone else has already attempted some kind of diagnosis, and usually I end up proving that they're wrong. Every so often I'll get one where the notes say that someone ran TechTool on the unit. One I remember rather clearly was they sent a unit in saying that Tech Tool was throwing errors right and left, they thought it needed a new logic board. I run Apple's big boy diagnostics on it, not a single error. I suppose a case could be made that I'm a bit biased towards Apple's diagnostics, but it just makes sense to me that Apple's diagnostics would be the definitive word, since they are built with detailed knowledge of the hardware, what ranges are acceptable for different sensors, etc. Third party programs are going to be guessing or going off of some kind of average.

- Collapse -
I wiped the drive and reloaded Snow Leopard
Dec 8, 2011 2:12AM PST

And I seem to be in business.
Emphasis on the "seem to be."
You're dead right about taking a step back, assessing the time spent, and minimizing the pain-in-the-neck aspects of extensive research and attempts. And no, no real progress, only temporary functionality until power outages. Plus Lion was inaccessible.
I like your idea about not jumping to reload all the 3rd party software. If it all goes south I won't have wasted so much time.
I'm very patient and can plod along not letting a detail slip past or an alternate possibility escape me. I'm an old hand at troubleshooting, but mostly only when I know the ground rules.

- Collapse -
Hopefully
Dec 9, 2011 10:01AM PST

Hopefully I am wrong. Sounds like it'd be quite the ordeal to get it serviced where you are. Normally I wouldn't recommend it, but normally the people I discourage from it live within pretty easy driving distance of either an AASP or Apple retail store. You may want to look into the necessary tools to do some of the work yourself.

Some suction cups to get the glass panel off, plus a magnetized T8 and T10 screwdriver and you should be more or less in business. You could at least replace the HDD that way if you so wanted. Just make sure you peruse the ifixit website so you're aware of what you'd be getting into. You'd pretty much void the warranty by doing that, but sounds like where you are the warranty's probably more useful as toilet paper than getting your computer fixed, so probably ultimately be cheaper to just buy a replacement HDD if needed.

Still, you should check to see if there are any AASPs in your area that might be closer than the nearest Apple retail store. Your warranty is good at any AASP or Apple retail store worldwide, so maybe there's a place you could get to in a couple of hours instead of a couple days. It'd at least be worth investigating.

Anyway, it does happen that I am wrong... Just not very often. At least not when it comes to diagnosing problems with Apple units. Over the past two years, I've probably done something in the neighborhood of 1500 repairs, so there's not a lot of I haven't seen multiple times, but every now and then it does happen.

- Collapse -
replacing my own iMac HD
Dec 9, 2011 8:42PM PST

You sound a lot like me with Nakamichi, Tandberg, and Yamaha.
I think that UPS and a spare HD are in order.

- Collapse -
what happened to my grateful post to Jimmy Greystone?
Dec 8, 2011 2:16AM PST

Basically I wiped the drive and reloaded Snow Leopard and I seem to be OK.
Then I agreed with everything he said and hoped that he was wrong about just one thing: my drive being in the early stages of Alzheimers.
Then I hit "submit reply"

- Collapse -
Seems to be right where you left it.
Dec 8, 2011 5:52AM PST

I've just read it

P

- Collapse -
Answer
This Apple Support document might help
Dec 5, 2011 3:14PM PST

Read this Apple Support document which might be applicable to your iMac:
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS3479

I am not really sure about your problem because you say it runs fine and restarts fine under OS X 10.6.7
Are you trying to instal Lion?

If the iMac is only 94 days old it should have come with OS X 10.7.x (Lion) installed and probably should not run OS X 10.6.x (Snow Leopard).

regards,
centurion48

Note: This post was edited by a forum moderator to clean up copy and paste code issue in the forum submission form on 12/06/2011 at 9:41 AM PT

- Collapse -
No complications whatsoever, it just went crazy one fine day
Dec 5, 2011 8:38PM PST

It came (August 26th) with Snow Leopard installed, but I got Lion downloaded for free from apple. I installed it on my FW drive so I could use either system, depending on which disk I chose for startup. Simple. I seldom use Lion.

<div>It went crazy when I told it in Get-Info to apply changes in permission to all items on the drive. I was having to enter my password every time I moved a file or changed a name.

- Collapse -
What you need it Apple!
Dec 5, 2011 8:47PM PST

This machine is, apparently, 94 days old which makes it under warranty.

<div>Get on the phone to Apple and tell them all about it.

- Collapse -
phone assistance
Dec 6, 2011 8:03AM PST

I thought the warranty coverage for phone help was only 90 days.
But, living in Brazil, I probably cannot call someone in Cupertino, can I? I probably would have to call someone here who speaks no English. Foreign language technical over the phone ... sounds almost as bad as ordering chinese food over the phone.

- Collapse -
Exactly what does happen when you start it up
Dec 6, 2011 1:18PM PST

Can you operate normally when booted from the system DVD?
I know you don't want to shut it down but can you say what exactly happens if you boot from internal HD with nothing but the mouse plugged in? Do you get the normal chime? Do you get the grey/gray screen and spinning gear? What happens then?
Have you reset the System Management Controller?
- Shut down the computer.
- Unplug the computer's power cord.
- Wait fifteen seconds.
- Attach the computer's power cord.
- Wait five seconds, then press the power button to turn on the computer.

regards,
centurion48

- Collapse -
I missed your post on my iMac startup hang, Centurion!
Dec 7, 2011 3:30AM PST

Sorry, Dunno how I did that.
Well the system dvd only offers to reload the OS, as far as I recall. Plus it's as slow as molasses.
The "Recover" disk inside Lion allows me to go on line for help.
But today the power went out for 5 hours, so I went through the reload for the 3rd time. (Brazil's infrastructure is 19th century). But each time Snow Leopard runs perfectly. My permissions are perfect, it copies files to my FW drive at the usual 95MB/sec, but it won't boot from the FW, which would give me the Lion OS.
I tried again this time to do a normal boot. It comes up, chimes, grey/white screen, gives me the Apple logo, and gives me the gear turning after about 8 seconds, but that's it. If I leave it for 2-3 minutes it'll give me the circle/bar instead of the logo. period.

- Collapse -
Maybe, just maybe
Dec 11, 2011 5:23AM PST

Spanf,
I think what is happening is that you are using the Lion Recovery when you don't actually have Lion installed on your iMac. I might be wrong but I think what you really have to do is go to the App Store and download a new copy of Lion and install that. Your account in the App Store should show you having 'purchased' Mac OS X 10.7 "Lion" because you did that when you bought the iMac so you are entitled to download it at no cost.
(If you later have problems with an installed version of Lion then that is the time you use the Lion Recovery.)
Does that make sense?

regards,
centurion48