General discussion

In January I posted this regarding a discussion on

the Gonzales confirmation hearings.

"Let's see if I understand this. Because we train our military to withstand torture at the hands of people we have in the past condemned for using torture, we can now use it ourselves because it is no longer torture; it's just a training technique we use to imitate torture."

"And there have been allegations of death at the hands of our interrogators in Iraq, so does that make it torture again?"

I was trying to get to the issue of our behavior at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Little did I know that the Red Cross had already pronounced on the issue:

What the hell are we doing? Where is George Bush leading this country that it has now abandoned most of it's previous moral stands, all in the name of deposing Saddam Hussein and elevating George Dubya?

20 years from now what are people going to say about the generation that elected this idiot one and a quarter times? At least Nixon was opposed, even by some in his own party and would have been impeached had he not baled, but nobody is opposing this guy in any meaningful way. Democrats have signed on to this agenda.

Some here say it's not my problem because in their opinion I am no longer an American, that I should be writing all this from the viewpoint of an outsider.

As if you'd listen.

It is a part of that Isolationist thread that is woven through the collective character of America that nobody else's opinion matters, only true blue Americans. And right now nobody's opinion matters except that of the true Red White and Blue Bushies. Roughly a quarter of the electorate if my understanding of the figures is correct.

I have the feeling that in a few years, we'll look back on all this and go "How did we get it so wretchedly wrong". I understand partisanship, I understand divergent opinions, but I don't understand this headlong abandonment of everything the US once stood for.

Rob Boyter

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ill look back and say

why didnt we get more info

and when you need info you do whats needed i give a rats behind about the so called people in custody.

and what we once stood for is happing over there elections and freedom you forget that

oh yes your the people that said elections never happen.

you and Ted hic Kenndy the woman killer, John self inflicted wounds Kerry

the elections happened, and more to be seen in other countries seems the taste of freedoms ringing strong
you take your un and internatinal red croos and stick them where the sun dont shine

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Mark don't attribute things to me that I have never said

and don't believe. And I have made my feelings about Kennedy clear. And Stop changing the subject.

Rob Boyter

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your the one who brought

this up the "brutality of these prisoners.

there isn't a thing that was done to them that i see wrong.
there fellows only beheaded there prisoners.

and alleged killings well i allege they died at the hands of there own men

and where our presidents taking us, seems to me hes taking real good care of us and the other countries seem to be taking stock in the elections that Ted Hic(woman killer) kennedy said we should pull out as soon as the elections that kerry said wouldnt happen along with the nay sayers.

so in the futre im betting they will say thank god for men like president bush, a man who stood up to the scum of the earth.

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"I'd like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. Take the hypothetical. If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, 'Do what you have to do.' So it's easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you're in the foxhole, it's a very different deal. And I respect ? I think we all respect the fact that the president's in the foxhole every day. So he can hardly be blamed for asking ... his White House counsel ... to figure out when it comes to torture, what the law allows and when the law allows it and what there is permission to do."
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Besides being in the White House, the plushest and safest

foxhole ever made, the President is supposed to be guided by and is sworn to uphold the Constitution. The Constitution that delineates due process among other things. My quarrel has always been that this President has kicked us several feet down the slippery slope of nullifying the Bill of Rights. I keep being haunted by Pastor Niemoller's homily about Nazi Germany, and how gradually groups were singled out and liquidated until nobody was left to object.

Posting on SE is like that too, there's any number of people here who say, "Muslims, Gays, left-handed Saxophone players, doesn't bother me if they're tortured, they're the enemy".

What's the price for starting a war for the wrong reason, or no reason? I know, and so do you, NOTHING AT ALL but if there isn't a price for mistaken actions on this scale what differentiates us from the former Soviet Union after WW2, eating up all those little countries? What happens when it becomes common-place and the world runs in fear from what we might do next? Eventually a bigger bully turns up and takes everything away from us just like we did Saddam Hussein. Beware China and the Far East, cause they're eating us alive economically and in terms of population, and they've got no reason to treat us fairly now that we've abandoned our pretence at a principled stance in foreign policy. I figure it'll take another 25 years and then we're toast. Yeah, most of us will be dead, but not our kids and grandkids, they'll be cursing our memory.

Rob Boyter

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Just hope he doesn't invade Canada, they've got oil

and natural resources too.

Rob Boyter

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Then ...

... Senator Charles Schumer of NY should probably resign from the committee.

He's the author of that quote. Of course, the same man said: "It's hard to be a straight shooter when you're a blind loyalist," but that's not surprising from this hypocrit.

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wrong info but right turn out

but then you wouldn't admit being wrong as you never are.

and when it comes to the scum in the prisons that we picked up they are the enemy and if they see a naked lady ooooo ho mean, step on there hands pity wasn't the neck, you do whats necessary to get info.

you don't like it to bad, stay up in Canada they deserve you.

and seems chinas putting the screws to north Korea.

and you better get down on your knees that the usa is around to protect you as canada would fall right after the usa.

so get off you high horse and get real

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Thought you were trying to suck me in with an unattributed

quote, that's why I discussed the White House and the President's responsibilities to the constitution rather than the quote itself.

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You just don't get it.

Have no fear, the US is here to protect you Wink It's only a matter of time until your country's own immigration problem rears its ugly head. You can only hope we've wiped this threat off the planet by then. Canada needs all those new workers ...

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Maybe it should have...

...been left back in January, didn't do any better in February.

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