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General discussion

Immigration has a "hint of maple" ?.....

May 19, 2007 12:51AM PDT
U.S. immigration looks to Canada

WASHINGTON (CP) - A sweeping immigration overhaul proposed this week in the United States has a distinctly Canadian flavour.

One of the key parts of a new Senate deal supported by President George W. Bush includes a point system to assess merit when it comes to choosing new citizens, something Canada has been using for years. The United States has long admitted immigrants mostly on the basis of family ties.

Senate Republicans like the merit-based approach that measures skills and education levels because it could help make the United States more competitive.

Discussion is locked

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Since we have become a service oriented economy...
May 19, 2007 3:20AM PDT

... does this mean an experienced burger flipper from Ireland gets preference now over a tool dye maker from Germany?

Wink

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No, Grim. In practice it will mean
May 19, 2007 4:20AM PDT

that a skilled computer programmer from India will get preference over the unskilled Mexican wife or brother of a current green-card holder, the reverse of the present system, which focuses more on keeping families together (OTOH, lately neither would be admitted unless it were early in January, as the existing special program for particularly skilled immigrants has way too few slots for the number of applicants For instance, we recently deported the Mexican-born head of the outstanding kidney transplant program at a major Houston hospital).

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Query
May 19, 2007 4:47AM PDT
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And a thought to add
May 19, 2007 11:54AM PDT

I've heard it argued that taking a poor or developing countries "best" makes that country somehow poorer again. As well, those who rise from poverty and become educated but leave the ghettos for a better life are often criticized for doing so.....that their families and friends expect them to stay around the old neighborhood rather than desert it. No matter who benefits or loses, someone is going to cry "unfair". This creates quite a dilemma for both interests, I think. Confused

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It is a tough one!
May 20, 2007 1:42AM PDT

(I'm going to ramble.)

The Statue of Liberty invitation helped or country to develop. (Yet, some were sent back home from Ellis Island, so all were not admitted, for a variety of reasons.)

IMO, the vast majority of those illegally crossing our southern border are looking for work. But not all, as evidenced by the increasing number of "gangs". I have seen first hand how those who came for jobs are very hard workers. And I'm one of those who thinks they did not "take jobs from Americans". In the 1980's a major hotel here could not fill their service jobs, so "imported" (by legal sponsorship) people from Mexico and trained them.) My nephew could not find enough men for his concrete driveway business. That's hard work, and those who were hired left without notice.

I don't know what, if anything, the Mexican government is doing to improve te lot of it's citizens. Bt from statements made over more recent times, their answer seems to be for the US to take the unemployment problem off their hands.

Coupled with the human illegal traffic across the border is the drug one. (Filling the demand from US users of those drugs.)

At this point in time I lean toward a "guest worker" approach. (Though I realize that it would have the same problem as visas re: locating violators.)


These are complicated questions with no easy answers.


Angeline ( who lost her signature)

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Same thing happened during...
May 23, 2007 7:10PM PDT

...desegregation, which left the traditional black neighborhoods to become nothing more than crime ridden ghettos. There were a number of pallative liberal minded programs which tried to correct the situation caused by same, such as HUD programs. Urban renewal came into it's heyday about 2 decades after desegregation due to the urban decay, often in combo with HUD programs in an effort to eradicate the evidence of what liberalism had accomplished for those neighborhoods due to resulting "black flight" into other areas. I guess if it was good then, it's good now and India should embrace this version of economic desegregation as they suffer "talent flight" to other countries. India will no doubt be the better for it, same as those black neighborhoods which turned into ghettos.

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I think that was the case, Angeline.
May 24, 2007 11:12PM PDT

It happened last year, so I forget some of the details. But it's not just at the low end that our get-tough policy is shooting ourselves in the foot (if not higher on the anatomy Wink ):

Of onion farms and immigration reform.

>> J. Carnes is the owner of the farm where Jessica works. In the last two seasons, he says he's lost $600,000 worth of onions because he can't get enough people to help get the crop out of the ground before it rots. He told us he wishes he could find Americans to pick the crop, but never has success when he tries to find people willing to help out. In the meantime, he waits and hopes for immigration reform -- a guest worker program could help bring back those carloads of helping hands. <<
On the TV show, they said he's now paying $7.50/hour, and still can't find enough workers -- as a result, 60 acres are currently rotting, unpicked and past the point they can be.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I saw that newscast also, Dave...
May 25, 2007 3:14AM PDT

Dave, I also watched that edition of the NBC Nightly News. Did you catch Brian Williams little ship on the intro to the lead story when he was trying to say "Lebanese Army"? Must have caused a scramble for the network's blooper reel in Master Control.

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Hi, J. I missed it, but K picked up on it! (NT ;-)
May 25, 2007 6:39AM PDT

.

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In the onion story, Dave...
May 25, 2007 7:33AM PDT

In the onion story, did you notice his claim that he couldn't get workers at $20 an hour? Something does not sit right with me abut that claim. Is he paying the workers he has at that rate? I would think that at that rate the local migrants would flock to him. Or did that mean that he wanted to pay the migrants one lower figure and local non-migrants the higher figure of $20 an hour? I'd like to see an ad by him making that offer to back up his claim of making it.
BTW, on the lead story "oops: Did J also envision an army of Rosie O'Donnels marching into Lebanon (grin)?

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What difference will a "new" system make?
May 20, 2007 6:26AM PDT

The "system isn't being used today. This new amnesty policy is disgusting and nothing will be accomplished until the Mexican border is CLOSED.

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Suppose the bill is this:
May 20, 2007 12:23PM PDT
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No
May 21, 2007 6:24AM PDT

Simple fact is the laws and rules of today are NOT being enforced or followed and why should anyone think they will be in the future?

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RE: why should anyone think they will be in the future?
May 21, 2007 6:27AM PDT

new administration?

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Eight years of Clinton
May 21, 2007 6:33AM PDT

Did we "fix" immigration?

Meet the new boss,

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There is hope
May 21, 2007 8:28AM PDT

Besides, it is an improvement. If it isn't enforced as we would like, then we can refine it. If there is still no enforcement, then we can kick some people out of office.

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I still like it.
May 25, 2007 8:58AM PDT

Whether or not these things are enforced is one thing. But it gives us a whole toolbox of things we can do if we just do it. It wouldn't hurt to pass it, would it? And if these things are enforced, then power to'em, I say. Things would be better in the USA.

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I will kep saying it
May 25, 2007 9:29AM PDT

Look at the Bush administrations record on illegal aliens. It is abysmal. None of the past "reforms" have worked and neither will this one. Number 1, the Mexican border must be CLOSED in order to solve this problem. Until then, it is just all political pandering

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Part of the proposal is a fence
May 25, 2007 11:15AM PDT

A lot of people say they want the fence, first, arguing that it is a necessity. But you can look at the proposal a different way, that it has other kinds of fences. If a guy breaks the law he will no longer be able to get a visa, and the mechanism in place won't allow him to be hired if he comes across illegally.

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We already have laws that prohibit
May 25, 2007 11:17AM PDT

illegals from being hired that aren't being enforced. Why do you think new laws will be obeyed?

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I think they will be forced to be obeyed
May 27, 2007 12:41AM PDT
3. Putting A Workable Employer Verification System In Place

An Employment Eligibility Verification System (EEVS) Must Be Ready To Process New Hires Before The Z Visa And Temporary Worker Programs Go Into Effect. Employers will be required to verify the work eligibility of all employees using the EEVS, and all workers will be required to present stronger and more readily verifiable identification documents.

* The EEVS Will Require Presentation Of A Limited Range Of Highly Secure Government IDs, Which Will Be Checked Electronically Against Federal And State Databases. When a worker presents an identification document to obtain employment, the EEVS will perform an electronic check against Federal and State databases. The Social Security Administration will be asked to confirm whether the name and Social Security number presented by the worker are a "match" in its files. Furthermore, the EEVS will use links to the U.S. State Department and individual State Departments of Motor Vehicles to provide employers with the digital photograph associated in government databases with the ID presented. Once employers have direct access to the original photograph associated with an ID, it will be much harder for illegal immigrants to fool them with fake documents.

* The 1986 Act Relied On A Verification System That Did Not Have The Capacity To Detect ID Fraud. More than two dozen documents are acceptable under the 1986 system, and employers are not legally required to verify the documents' authenticity.

4. Increasing Penalties For Employers Who Knowingly Hire Illegal Immigrants

Employers Who Hire Illegal Workers Will Face Stiff New Criminal And Civil Penalties. The maximum civil fine for hiring illegal workers will rise from the 1986 level of $2,000 to $5,000 for first offenders and from the 1986 level of $10,000 to $25,000 for three-time offenders. The maximum criminal penalty for a pattern or practice of hiring illegal workers will increase 25-fold, from $3,000 per alien to $75,000 per alien.
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I forget what year it was,
May 27, 2007 12:52AM PDT

but after one of these laws was passed, I had to bring documentation to work to prove that I was an American citizen to keep working. They apparently didn't enforce that law everywhere or for everyone. This is a bad law, it will not fix the Mexican border problem and will not be enforced. At this very moment, The IRS and Social Security Admin could cross reference the duplicate and illegally used SSN?s, but don?t.

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They (SS) somehow know enough
May 27, 2007 1:03AM PDT

to return money sent in that is from income of people with fake credentials. Seems to me that could be used as a red flag.

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It might work if allowed to work
May 27, 2007 9:40AM PDT

It surely won't work if nobody will allow it to work.

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I have 50 years
May 27, 2007 9:56AM PDT

of "immigration" reform history on my side

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(NT) By golly, I'll make them make it work
May 27, 2007 11:46AM PDT
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Care to provide a link or perhaps the name of the person...
May 20, 2007 11:46AM PDT

and this "major Houston hospital"?

Also looks like you might want to read up on H-1B visas which really have little to do with immigration but much to do with work of a skilled but temporary nature.

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i thought the H-1B visa was refered to in DKs post
May 20, 2007 12:12PM PDT
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Shows why your leave and earnings statement...
May 21, 2007 3:20AM PDT

does not include pay for thinking.

DK specifically stated (OTOH, lately neither would be admitted unless it were early in January immediately PRIOR to the bit you gleaned clearly indicating his assumption.

Should he choose to provide the additional information so one could readily check his claim it would most likely further illuminate the assumption he made.

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and why yours doesn't cover manners
May 21, 2007 4:11AM PDT