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General discussion

IMAC G3 - OS 10.3/10.4 WON'T LOAD/STRANGE DISPLAYS ON SCREEN

Apr 11, 2007 4:23AM PDT

I have an iMac G3 DVD/400 Graphite, 512 MB RAM, which runs OS 9.2.2 (which it came with) perfectly but will not install OS X Panther or Tiger (Family Pack) without problems. I bought this for a friend who's fed up with Windows and want to sort it out !! It took several goes to get a full install beyond the 'There were problems installing....Please try again' warning. Firmware is 4.1.9f but when it runs the Tiger install DVD, some very weird 'remaining time' figures (eg, 16128 minutes) are displayed after about 10 minutes. Once installed, the OS X command windows become TRANSPARENT over the desktop screen design, with very strange font distortion - some are very chunky' in places and very dark black. I changed the DVD-ROM drive in case this was a problem but it made no difference, so I changed this back again. I ran the Firmware again after wiping the HD but a warning said it didn't need it.
The DVD disc loads and runs Tiger perfectly well on a sister Graphite 400 DVD - everything displays as should.
Maybe the previous owner didn't sort out the firmware before installing a version of OS X and went then too far but I can't be sure as couldn't find OS X previously installed when I bought the iMac.
One other thing I tried - I put in another hard drive which had a friend's Tiger installed but the same transparent command windows showed up, so I assume it's the computer that is at fault. Tried Panther (perfectly good CD's) but this won't get beyond first install CD.
Can anyone please suggest what might be the problem, perhaps a graphics card ??? CPU ??? Is there an issue with Family Pack Tiger that I don't know about ?
Thanks.

Discussion is locked

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Install problems
Apr 11, 2007 5:06AM PDT

I would stick with the Tiger (10.3) installer as the 10.4 would be a little much for the slow G3 processor.
As you have a "sister" machine to play with, I would suggest the following.
Pull the RAM from the running machine and put it in the Non-running machine and try again. From what you have said, I do not think that would be a problem for you.
OS 9, and below, were fairly lenient with RAM specs and most RAM that fitted into the machine, would work. OS X is a little more picky about RAM standards.
If that fails, reinstall OS 9.2.2 and take another look at the firmware version.
The Graphics card cannot be changed out, it is integral, but it would be possible to change the processor for another of the same type and speed.

Good Luck

P

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IMAC G3 - OS 10.3/10.4 WON'T LOAD/STRANGE DISPLAYS ON SCREEN
Apr 11, 2007 8:04AM PDT

Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately the RAM doesn't make any difference - RAM in the 'sister' is not as good compatability-wise/brand name as that in the problem iMac. Also, I've done several OS 9.2.2 reinstalls after trying Tiger and the firmware always remains at 4.1.9f. I think maybe this hadn't been updated when someone tried installing OS X before I bought it and it never recovered fully when they later correctly updated the firmware ? Firmware issues like that can cause these weird displays, as I've seen what a friend almost did to his iMac lime 400 with earlier firmware 3.2.4 (Tiger again) but we saved his. So, is the CPU damaged in the Graphite, perhaps ?
Any other suggestions would be welcome, as I hope to resolve it.
Thanks.

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Firmware Update
Apr 11, 2007 10:47AM PDT

I have to running machines with firmware versions of 4.2.8f1 and 4.1.9f1, both are running OS 10.4 and a G3 iMac @400Mhz running 10.3 with a firmware version of 4.1.9f1
Normally the installer will tell you if the firmware needs updating and the only way to update it is using OS 9.x.x Firmware does not get updated by the installation of a particular OS.

I'm not sure I understand your comment on the RAM from the other machine. The RAM in the other machine is completely compatible if the two machines are the same. Brand name has no bearing on the compatibility of the RAM. The other machine works with that RAM, your machine does not work with its RAM, just swap them over in the interest of elimination.

Yes, the CPU could be damaged, but lets do the easy and inexpensive tests first.

P

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This description
Apr 11, 2007 9:54PM PDT

quote
Once installed, the OS X command windows become TRANSPARENT over the desktop screen design, with very strange font distortion - some are very chunky' in places and very dark black.
Unquote.

Could this be the window that appears when a Kernel Panic has happened? Take another look at that screen and see if you see the instruction to reboot your machine, only in about a dozen different languages, including Chinese/Japanese

Just curious

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This description
Apr 12, 2007 6:22AM PDT

I've found it makes no difference with the RAM swap - PC100 @ 2 x 256 MB per iMac. Also, there is no warning window telling me to reboot the Mac when this problem occurs, only what I've mentioned, ie, 'There were problems....' but no details as to WHAT the problem is. I've heard of 'kernel panics' but so far haven't experienced one... until now, maybe. The 'command windows' I mentioned originally are the desktop drop down menus in Tiger, ie, File, Edit, View, etc. - as you run the cursor down the various sub menus, they each become transparent. Another interesting point - when installing from the DVD, shows a blue vertical bar through some text on the installer window, eg, 'Restart', 'Install' - never seen that with other iMacs.
I'll try some RAM from my Indigo 500 iMac to see if that helps and then report back.
Thanks for your advice so far.

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Curiouser and curiouser,
Apr 12, 2007 8:38AM PDT

What I find strange, apart from the way that Donald Trump combs his hair, is that even with a drive that contains a known good OS, the problem is still there.
We now are reasonably sure that RAM is not the problem, shortly to be confirmed and that the HD is not the problem.
The firmware is up to date. Broken firmware would probably not cause this problem. It would be more likely to fail to boot at all.

Processor or logic board. On the Slot Loading models of the iMac, the processor is part of the main logic board and cannot be replace separately.
Likewise the Graphics chips is also similarly attached.
There is a PAV board, Power/Analog/Video board that can fail but the symptoms are usually no video and no boot. I have only seen them in the working and failed states so I do not know if there is any in-between stage, I doubt it.
Both these items are frequently on sale on eBay but, to be honest, it may be as cheap to purchase another 400Mhz DV as it is to buy those parts. I have seen the PAV board, complete with part case and CRT, for around $90. It is easier to go that route than to mess with setting up the PAV board with a new CRT. Each board is matched to its original CRT and must be adjusted to suit a new one.

P

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Curiouser and curiouser....
Apr 12, 2007 11:23AM PDT

Well, the RAM from my Indigo 500 doesn't make any difference and I agree that messing around changing the logic board, etc wouldn't be cost-effective. As changing the hard drive makes no difference either and it runs very well on 9.2.2, it may just have to be a machine which runs OS 9 only and I'll live with that.
I bought this very clean machine for a friend who wants to get used to Macs and dump Windows, but it's not been a very good start - having purchased more than five different iMacs slot-load G3's (off eBay) this year and got other friends to 'turn on' to Apple without a single hitch, running Tiger mostly.
I may still get another DVD 400 off eBay, as you say.
Thanks for your advice once again and if anything changes I'll post it here and hope to hear of any other possible solutions through this forum.

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(NT) Good Luck
Apr 12, 2007 9:57PM PDT
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Please Let Us Know When You're Fed Up With The Mac ...
Apr 13, 2007 1:47PM PDT

We can set you up with a supported operating system that run on lots of different hardware with no mysteries.

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Ahh, the lost troll
Apr 14, 2007 12:34AM PDT

having read a couple of your posts, I don't believe you have the capability to do so

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I Was Raised Mac ...
Apr 14, 2007 2:05AM PDT

And most of my family still use them. I know that the Mac platform is JUST as problematic as this thread shows it to be. You all have PROVED that old Macs are a problem in this thread.

This shows that despite: giving up most commercial software; giving up compatibility with many Web sites; signing up for many security holes on an obscure platform; that getting support for non-current Mac products is like getting root canal.

I suspect that it won't be long before the first Intel Macs will start to be unsupported as well. Then fanboys like mrmacfixit can get to work on them.

What would you expect with the hardware and software coming from a home electronics and wannabe cell phone company?

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Back to my original statement
Apr 14, 2007 2:46AM PDT

So, a problem with one iMac can be extrapolated into meaning that all older Macs are a problem.

I doubt you have the capability to supply a supported operating system that run on lots of different hardware with no mysteries. Which one would that be and who supplies support for it?

Would be interesting to know the answer.

P

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Ho-Hum -- Slow Times for mrmacfixit
Apr 14, 2007 5:43AM PDT

So this iMac is the ONLY Mac for which BIOS/memory issues exits. That's a laugh. My father and brother are constantly fighting with hardware issues for their Mac systems. My dad even has to turn on the system in a certain sequence (with his eyes and toes crossed) so that it starts up because he has an external hard drive that lost support during a OS X "upgrade"

And so the Apple Web site has support for any old Macs where?

I have lots of capabilities that you are not aware of, but this is true regardless: the other major operating systems for the Intel platform are better supported by their manufacturers than the Mac. Macs are throw-away consumer electronics.

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Ho, Ho, Ho,
Apr 14, 2007 8:50AM PDT

thanks for the laugh.

You will find support for OS 9 here http://discussions.apple.com/category.jspa?categoryID=99

You will also find support for OS X in the same general area.

I'm still waiting for the name of your alternative OS, the one that is a "supported operating system that run on lots of different hardware with no mysteries."

Take a moment and think about your statements. Nobody has support for "old" machines, unless they are still under some form of hardware warranty.
Dell, Gateway, et al, will only support machines that are still under warranty but will happily sell you parts for machines not under warranty.
Parts for old Macs are still available from Apple.

What other "major operating system manufacturers" are you referring to? Surely not M$. They only offer support for XP and Vista. Linux, maybe, then it needs all the support it can get.

You take care of those capabilities, you may need them

P

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REAL SUPPORT - Dell Website/Windows Ecosystem
Apr 14, 2007 10:59AM PDT

The Dell Website has manuals online for every PC they have sold, and you can find them by the individual service tag. (Try that at apple.com.) They support their products EXTREMELY well - even their off-shore people are a level above those for, say, Symantec.

And you don't HAVE to buy your parts from them. They use real, standard parts, and there are real, standard drivers for them. And realistic prices, and millions of sellers on eBay.

As for support: since 24 out of every 25 PCs ever sold is an Intel compatible (oh yean they run Windows), there is support EVERYWHERE. There is hardly a town in the US small enough not to have some guy selling Windows PCs out of his garage. Contrast that to the fact that Cupertino drove the clone-makers out of business. (What monopoly? If Apple - formerly Computer, now just an electronics manufacturer - was a significant business they would have had judgements against them harsher than even the EU Commission imagines for Microsoft.)

The availability of Windows expertise is not just invested in guys like (for Heaven's sake, the arrogance) mrmacfixit, but in millions of people and terabytes of Web space.

So lose the attitude -- you're just a big frog in a small pond. Not a troll, just a shill.

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Whatever
Apr 14, 2007 11:29AM PDT

Nicely confirmed.

The Apple website has manuals for every machine made. Just enter the serial number and there it is.

So i'll stop now. Pointless conversing with an unarmed person

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I'm Armed With Facts And Dangerous To Falsehood Speakers
Apr 14, 2007 3:31PM PDT

Fanboys need not apply.

The best advice for the machine you're trying to fix -- use it as a boat anchor. If it was designed for OS 9, it's a POS, based on the old bogus PowerPC RISC platform that Apple so strongly promoted, then dropped like the rock when they were far enough on the road to Linux-dom to switch to Intel chips.

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You don't often see
Apr 14, 2007 11:21PM PDT

such vehement support for the Windows platform on this forum and your posts brought a refreshing and eloquent breath of fresh air.

The way you trotted out your parents as Mac users and then turned them in to disgruntled Mac users was magnificent, a masterful stroke that added credibility to your posts.

I especially liked your masterful use of facts. The way you carefully crafted an invitation to a supported platform, while at the same time, managing to allow the readers to only imagine which platform that could be. Superb.

Only a person with your capabilities could have crafted such a well thought out, well researched and knowledgeable series of posts. I learned such a lot from reading your posts. In fact I enjoyed them so much that I checked out some more of your writings. Wonderful experience. I enjoyed your post about Windows File Sharing, what does that Bob Proffit know anyway. The way you quickly informed everyone about IE 7 remembering the last window position was a stroke of brilliance. Who cares if the original poster was telling everyone that his version of IE7 didn't do that, amateurs!

Keep up the good work. These forums need people with the knowledge and skill that you have.

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. You have a Zune! WOW! You are definitely my hero! That you are an early adopter of such a superb device is so wonderful and shows you to be a person for whom technical specifications are far more important than anything else.
You can squirt me anytime.

Marylyne

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Zune? What's a Zune?
Apr 15, 2007 3:55AM PDT

Must have a lot of time on your hands, reading other posts.

My Dad had the original Macintosh (later known as the 12Cool so I've had length of experience more than most of you.

The difference: I can learn.