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If anyone has Jonah Jones address, could they please pass

along my e-mail address and this post to him because I have some questions I'm wrestling with without guidance concerning ultra-strict Hassidism, and Lev Tahor and Rabbi Sholomo Helbrond.

It turns out that Rabbi Helbrond moved from Israel to New York State because he says he feared for his life there, got in trouble with New York State law and was jailed for 7 years, but was released in two, then moved the community to Quebec where he got in trouble again for neglect of the health of the children in the community, though the issues are still being investigated, and fled with the community in Quebec to settle in Chatham/Kent in Ontario.

Mark, If you'd care to correspond as well I'd be happy to chat via e-mail. All I want is enlightenment, not conflict.

I will be researching the issues in the best fashion I can on-line too, but in an area as complex as this I do need a guide and help since I was raised half Presbyterian, and half CofE (my choice).

I assume the Mods have access to my e-mail addy, and I hereby authorize your passing it to Jonah, or making use of it yourselves.

Rob

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PM him a message

In reply to: If anyone has Jonah Jones address, could they please pass

From CNET! I doubt anyone will give out his real name and email address

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That was not Rob's message or request.

In reply to: PM him a message

He asked if anyone had Jonah's email address so they could pass on Rob's email address to Jonah.

That would be the proper way to do it to preserve Jonah's personal privacy, and that is what Rob has asked.

Mark

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Not what I asked, but never the less thank you Glenda.

In reply to: PM him a message

I agree with you that asking someone to provide me with his address would be too intrusive. I have e-mailed Jonah via the Mods page, and if he wishes to discuss the issue or not is entirely up to him. I'm okay if he feels he needs his energy for himself and/or other things.

Thanks for your opinion however.

Rob

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why?

In reply to: If anyone has Jonah Jones address, could they please pass

Are you planning on joining their community?

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(NT) Do you want him to get you an application also?

In reply to: why?

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Trying to provoke me? I don't have to explain myself to you

In reply to: why?

, James, but. I will. Absolutely not. They're all I abhor in religion and extremism. Nor am I inclined toward Lubavitcher or Hasidism generally. Nor am I interested in any other dehumanized religion.

You are very inclined to be provocative like this, James. You instigate conflict. While I may disagree, and disagree strongly, I try not to poke others in the eye. I grant that I am not very successful at that, but it is because my eye, and/or the eyes of calm rational beings have been poked first. Sadly this issue is entirely in the reddened eye of the beholder, which I acknowledge as well.

In many respects this group, Lev Tahor, represent the other side of the coin from extreme Islam. Except that they too want to destroy Israel. That's the particular wrinkle in this issue which amazes me. I believe that is because the Hasidim and Lubavitcher and this guy believe that Israel will only be properly founded when the Messiah (one they recognize) returns. But why actively block legislation in the current secular state of Israel which protects them. Why engage in provocative acts such as taking up residence in East Jerusalem causing their Arabic neighbours to react, and rebel, and protest their presence, thus needing the intervention of the Israeli Defense Force to protect them, a force which they believe has no legitimacy. And no I don't want an influx of posts debating those things either. I think their points are irrational and based on ideas plucked out of thin air and are without foundation.

The children of the Lev Tahor community were found to have rampant fungal infections due to minimal hygiene, and to have had none of the normal things that children have, like toys. None at all. They were expected to study Torah from morning 'til night and to sleep in sleep-sacks, never undressing except to change clothes hence the fungus on their feet and legs.

Shlomo Helbrond appears like a jolly Joseph Stalin with a lithp, in a beard and Hasidic garb, but it is clear he rules the community with an iron rod, betrothals are arranged at 14 or 15. I believe that it is possible to get married here with the written consent of both parents, as is the rule in most states in the US. Conservative Orthodox Rabbi's insist on 18, and perhaps Hasidim and Lubavitcher do too, again my unfamiliarity with their beliefs makes me unable to be certain. Hence my question and plea for enlightenment.

It is the detail of hasidic belief and their clinging to 16th Century dress (or possibly earlier) that confounds me as well. They are simply another community who, confronted by things they didn't like or couldn't accept, simply froze in place, holding to an era and beliefs that while distant from the Jewish culture they long to return to which, I presume, is that found in Palestine after their release from captivity in Babylon, was long removed from the 16th Century CE.

Oh, and the Hebrew language is "strengster verboten". They speak only Yiddish. I gather Hebrew is the language for after their Messiah appears.

When I was registered in the Ancient Civilizations of the Mediterranean and Near East program at U of T, in 1987, I was required to take x number of courses, 3 each I think in 3 languages, Latin Greek and one of any of the Semitic languages. I was torn between Aramaic and Biblical Hebrew, but events intervened which short circuited that endeavour (House, child, child care and its delights which isn't sarcasm. For me, it was a delight and the best years of my life).

Rob

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I still don't see a connection

In reply to: Trying to provoke me? I don't have to explain myself to you

that would be like asking me to fill you in on what some Mormon group might be up to. I did send him a link to your thread here, but for personal reasons he may not be able to respond.

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Were you a Mormon, I might do that. The group originated in

In reply to: I still don't see a connection

Israel, and Ultra Orthodoxy is likely to be more familiar to him than anyone else. It was merely a question, which he might reply to or might not. I am perfectly comfortable with a negative response or none at all. One is permitted to ask simple questions without necessarily expecting a reply, right? That's all I was asking for. If he is healthy enough, and wishes to answer, he can, if he isn't or simply doesn't want to get involved in a search for understanding for any reason at all, I respect that and won't pester him. I have PMed him as Glenda and Mark both suggested, and if he replies I will be pleased, but if he doesn't I will understand.

Rob

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It don't take much to put some of us into

In reply to: Trying to provoke me? I don't have to explain myself to you

provoking mode. Happy
Jewry in its various forms is indeed an interesting subject. I have a friend who worked as a Jehovah's Witness in Brooklyn for several years and acquired some personal knowledge of the Lubavitchers and such. I'll see if he has any sites (or cites) you could go to.

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Just so you all know.

In reply to: If anyone has Jonah Jones address, could they please pass

Jonah has recently withdrawn from being a mod for personal reasons. The Mod list has not yet been updated.

Rob, go to Jonah's profile, via the "Forum Moderators" listing if you can't find a post of Jonah's, then open his profile from there.

His email option is still current and I assume that is by choice to allow anyone to send him a message, a PM, as Glenda suggested.

That will pass your email address on to him. It is then Jonah's choice whether to respond or not.

Mark

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Thank you Mark, very much. Thank you additionally for

In reply to: Just so you all know.

reading and actually understanding what I was asking instead of misunderstanding.

I knew Jonah had withdrawn from participation here, and there is a chance that he may not be thrilled to hear from me, since we have different points of view. He has, however, in the past been very informative.

Learning things I don't know about and of which I have no experience I find a pleasurable experience, even when it may be something I may find myself not agreeing with. Rather than making up a judgement based on ignorance based prejudice, I like to give the concept a chance through an attempt to understand it before disagreeing with it. That is why I tend to get stroppy (i.e. irritated and bad tempered) when I am accused of reacting out of rank "liberal" bias. I admit to being a liberal, but not to being closed minded.

Besiide, it is as I posted elsewhere a species of intellectual weight lifting and stretching in order to stay limber intellectually. Some people exercise physically, I've never really enjoyed that much, and especially not at the moment with a very touchy and fragile back, so I do my exercise between my ears. That may also give you a clue as to why my posts are so long.

Again, Mark thank you for this info and for your respectful and impartial dealing with the problem of my two Speakeasy Accounts. I'm sorry you couldn't get through to me directly. Had you used the new e-mail address I was forced to change to thanks to some nasty spammer who got my address from somewhere, I'd have been pleased to authorize its de-authorization and removal.

Rob

Rob

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I actually wrote and submitted a reply back in late Feb.

In reply to: Rob

which I may not have Closed properly and which therefore failed to post. I apologize for the delay. The whole reason I got interested in the Stalin of Lev Tahor was because I had seen that programme on the Fifth Estate, and found myself more than a little disturbed by the whole thing.

Nevertheless I do apologize for the delay, JP, no slight intended; I enjoy your posts, and generally agree with you.

Rob

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I see they are still in the news

In reply to: I actually wrote and submitted a reply back in late Feb.

took the kids to Dominican Republic, most were dragged back to Canada, 2 still missing last I heard

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