Speakeasy forum

General discussion

I'm sure we all feel safer

by Dan McC / July 6, 2005 2:05 AM PDT
Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: I'm sure we all feel safer
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: I'm sure we all feel safer
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
Why did you leave out the about about ...
by EdH / July 6, 2005 2:24 AM PDT

the washing machine timers ( which the terrorists often use in bombs in Iraq)and the other elements of the story? A reasonable person would conclude that his detention is fully justified. A reasonable person would also conclude that you are attempting a smear.

If he has done nothing wrong he will undoubtedly be freed in due course. Why not let the coalitiom forces do their jobs?

Collapse -
He was in a TAXI, EdH.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / July 6, 2005 2:57 AM PDT

The standard for American citizens is "innocent until proven guilty," but the oppposite standard is clearly being used in this case. If it were in his suitcase with his name on it, that would be one thing -- but reading between the lines, the timers most likely belonged to the cab driver...

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
So what?
by EdH / July 6, 2005 3:04 AM PDT
In reply to: He was in a TAXI, EdH.

How do you know who the timers belonged to? This is Iraq not the US.

You know what? I trust the judgement of the guys on the ground over there much more than some lawyer or you guys.

Of course if they were bombers and it came out that they escaped scrutiny you'd be critical of that.

Collapse -
"Who knows who they belonged to" is PRECISELY
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / July 6, 2005 3:14 AM PDT
In reply to: So what?

the point, EdH. There's no proof they belonged to him (hence my comment about the luggage/tags), so that means he's innocent. Or did you miss "Since then, Mr. Kar has been held in what his relatives and their lawyers describe as a frightening netherworld of American military detention in Iraq?" An American citizen held by the American military should be judged by American standards, and that means you aren't guilty simply because you can't prove your innocence. The lack of outrage here (and ridicule of those whjo are outraged) shows how far we've already slid down the slippery slope to a police state.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Absolute nonsense.
by EdH / July 6, 2005 3:23 AM PDT

Have you no regard at all for the safety of Iraqi and Americans in what is by most standards a war zone? No need answer; it's a rhetorical question.

Collapse -
This is IRAQ Dave!!
by Evie / July 6, 2005 3:23 AM PDT

And BTW I do believe the SCOTUS ruled recently that all occupants of a vehicle could be held for drugs found in a vehicle.

Evie Happy

Collapse -
This is what some consider...
by EdH / July 6, 2005 3:28 AM PDT
In reply to: This is IRAQ Dave!!

"supporting the troops."

Collapse -
well, they might be going to far including
by Dragon / July 6, 2005 3:51 AM PDT
In reply to: This is IRAQ Dave!!

a public conveyance as "a vehicle". Still, there should be suspicion.

Collapse -
In the US ...
by Evie / July 6, 2005 3:56 AM PDT

... it might be different, although drugs found in a cab for which nobody claimed ownership would probably justify detention of all parties until ownership could be assigned. In Iraq, they found the timers, doubtful ownership was claimed, so given the significance in that warzone, they all get detained.

Dave just thinks anyone that puts pen to paper walks on water and should be granted special treatment and blanket immunity. If a terrorist slips through or they have to turn their heads the other way during the commission of a crime, so be it in the cause of democracy!

Evie Happy

Collapse -
they all get detained.
by JP Bill / July 6, 2005 4:15 AM PDT
In reply to: In the US ...

he was detained, interrogated, investigated, passed a lie detector test

AND

He is still detained.

Collapse -
Let's see ...
by Evie / July 6, 2005 4:45 AM PDT
In reply to: they all get detained.

... they've had no contact, but the relative's account of an FBI agent's comments (that the FBI will not comment on officially) is all you need as proof. OK.

I prefer that a full investigation is done and all the details are out before assuming the worst of my military.

Collapse -
And how do we know itr was a "taxi"?
by EdH / July 6, 2005 4:19 AM PDT

Anything can be a "taxi". A very convenient way to transport stuff. "We didn't know. We're only passengers in a taxi."

In a war zone situation it is best to err on the side of safety. If the guy is innocent, no real harm done and he has more subject matter for future documentaries.

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Huh?
by Kiddpeat / July 6, 2005 8:00 AM PDT
Collapse -
That Scotus ruling shows the slippery slope, Evie.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / July 6, 2005 4:17 AM PDT
In reply to: This is IRAQ Dave!!

Though I doubt it applies to a taxi (YET!) That's why slippery slopes are so insidious -- you get to a point you'd have considered outrageous when you started, except that's not how it happens. One's rights to due course of law are just gradually eroded away until nothing is left. And the fact that it's in Iraq is irrelevant if he's being held by the American military, as claimed.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
You really are in a dream world
by Evie / July 6, 2005 4:44 AM PDT

The fact that he was arrested by Iraqi forces in a vehicle with dozens of timers in a WAR ZONE. He should be detained until the case has been investigated. We only have a second hand account from a relative that he supposedly passed a lie detector test.

If he is being held on foreign soil by the American military, it is because Iraqi domestic forces turned him over. He is still in a military prison. That just isn't like being in civilian custody here in the US. If you can't see the difference I fear there's no reaching you with common sense anymore.

Dave, American, Iranian or whatever -- you go to a war zone you assume certain risks. The guy is an idiot for going IMO.

Evie Happy

Collapse -
Yes, by all means. Let's put an ACLU lawyer with each patrol
by Kiddpeat / July 6, 2005 8:06 AM PDT

and at each checkpoint to tell the troops when they can fire, and under what circumstances they can arrest, seize, search, etc. I'm sure all those lawyers will be quick to sign up for duty.

One word they should be careful of though. Frag.

Collapse -
Or detention....and then
by TONI H / July 6, 2005 8:15 AM PDT

complain that their 'bible' of choice (lawbooks to an attorney) are being mishandled by their overseers.

TONI

Collapse -
You are out of touch...
by Edward ODaniel / July 6, 2005 11:42 AM PDT

with much besides the obvious Dave.

COMMON AREA law with regard to drugs and other contraband has been in effect across the country and within the military for well over 30 years. It was simply UPHELD by the Supreme Court.

I again remind you that you missed much in your games and comic books about SGT Rock--Military law is considerably different than civilian law and American Law further has no bearing on Iraqi Law (you seem to need to be reminded that it was Iraqi security that captured them and regardless of who is handling confinement it is Iraqi security that will need to decide whether to turn them loose, try them, or simply stand them up against a wall.

Collapse -
Well... he isn't in the US
by dirtyrich / July 6, 2005 3:07 AM PDT
In reply to: He was in a TAXI, EdH.

He was extremely unlucky if he had nothing to do with the insurgency... getting caught with a taxi driver who apparently did. Due to the circumstances over there, you know, bombs and gunfire and lots of people dying all around, it isn't exactly easy for the military to process detainees. They kinda have other priorities, like protecting the thousands of Iraqi citizens.
Think about it, they let him go just because he was in a taxi... you'll find every friggin terrorist in Iraq taking taxis.

Collapse -
American citizen held by the American military should
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / July 6, 2005 3:15 AM PDT

preserve his rights, DR -- I find the lack of concerna and outrage about this an appaling exmple of how we're sliding into the police state. It's only a short step to "he was arrested -- he must be guilty!"

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) You are sliding from rationality into paranoia DK
by Evie / July 6, 2005 3:24 AM PDT
Collapse -
No, Ed, it's not paranoia - it's being willing to see what's

happening, rather than saying blithely ''it can't happen here.'' Unless we're very, very lucky, it's in the process of happening here -- all in the name of ''security,'' of course. That's why Ben Franklin warned about the extreme danger of trading personal liberties for perceived security, as the typical end result is neither. The key foundation of the American legal system is ''innocent until proven guilty'' -- that's being violated by our own military in this instance, and no one cares.

It's the same situation for an American citizen declared an enemy combatant -- the rules laid down for that (which abrogates one's rights as a citizen) are so vague that all it takes is for the AG to declare you one, and all your rights are gone; no judicial proof is required that you actually are an ''enemy combatant, ''you have no right to habeas corpus or a grand jury finding, legal representation, or even for your friends and relatives to know where you are and what's happening to you. That's clearly a violation of the Bill of Rights, and reminiscent of the modus operandi of the Star Chamber (the reason for the existence of the Bill of Rights in the first place), SS, NKVD, etc. -- yet that's stated US government policy.

Paranoid? I hope I am. But that's what most German Jews who left around '33 or '34 were called by their friends and acquaintances, if you've read the history of that sad era -- and we all know how that turned out.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Apparently the paranoia has blurred your vision ...
by Evie / July 6, 2005 4:16 AM PDT

... this is EVIE, not Ed.

But anyway, you are complaining about police state actions IN a police state/war zone and expecting someone be treated as if they were an American citizen on American soil.

Get a grip!

If they let him go and he blew up a bunch of Iraqis in a marketplace, you would be busy making disgraceful accusations that the deaths were on Bush's/Rummy's/Rove's shoulders Sad

How pathetic.

Evie

Collapse -
Blather
by EdH / July 6, 2005 4:49 AM PDT

You can't ignore the realities of life in a war zone. Exempting taxis or their passengers from scrutiny is sheer madness.

And of course, once again calling American troops Nazis on the back hand. Good work.

Collapse -
No, Ed, I'm not at all talking about the troops,
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / July 6, 2005 12:21 PM PDT
In reply to: Blather

except insofar as they're carrying out the Administration's policies. What I'm saying is that we're on the same slippery slope to a police state (hopefully not nearly as bad as a the Nazis -- but any police state is intolerable for a lover of liberty) as was seen in Germany in the 30's. With precisely the same excuse of "temporary extraordianry powers" being needed for the duration of the emergency -- in the German case, the emergency was manufactured; in the present case it's real, but the powers aren't just being used against terrorists, but against ordinary criminals and dissenters. The Patriot Act makes legal FBI/intelligence practices (with regards to domestic surveillance and agents provacateur) that were illeagl (but done anyway) under Nixon, and as a result banned from then until now.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Again, Dave, this is in IRAQ in a war zone.
by EdH / July 6, 2005 12:31 PM PDT

it sure sounds like the Durbin comparison to me.

Collapse -
Can you cite one abuse of the Patriot Act?
by Evie / July 6, 2005 12:34 PM PDT

You really are out in left field in this thread. We're talking about a man found in a vehicle with timers known to be used by insurgents. He could be Ashcroft's altar boy for all I care, it doesn't matter. He was caught IN IRAQ BY IRAQIS. Your police state rantings really are paranoid. He IS in a police state at the moment and being treated accordingly. You are not, so quitcherbitchin and realize that the Nazi analogies are more than offensive to many here.

Evie Happy

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Get Dave a paper bag... he's hyperventilating again....
by dirtyrich / July 6, 2005 8:23 AM PDT
Collapse -
sliding into the police state?
by jonah jones / July 6, 2005 3:37 AM PDT

maybe it escaped your notice, but iraq is a police state, and it wasn't, you would see a HUGE increase in body bags!

you seem to treat the war in iraq as some "B movie" where a pot belly cop is supposed to tip his hat and says "oh! sorry sir, i didn't know you were an american citizen"...


.

Collapse -
Am I recalling incorrectly here
by TONI H / July 6, 2005 3:41 AM PDT

a situation in Kuwait right at the start of the entry to Iraq where one of our own military soldiers shot and blew up tents filled with HIS own soldiers?

American or not....I believe extreme precaution should be used regarding releasing ANY suspect, and if that means they investigate heavily prior to releasing him from custody (and YOU want to call it 'guilty until proven innocent, that's OK), then so be it.

If nothing else, it will be a lesson to others who decide to climb into a taxi or car driven by a 'friend' to actually search the trunk first in order to protect themselves in a hostile country.

TONI

Popular Forums
icon
Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
icon
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
icon
Laptops 21,181 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
icon
Phones 17,137 discussions
icon
Security 31,287 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
icon
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
icon
Windows 10 2,657 discussions

FALL TV PREMIERES

Your favorite shows are back!

Don’t miss your dramas, sitcoms and reality shows. Find out when and where they’re airing!