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General discussion

I love this.

Feb 28, 2015 12:53AM PST

Discussion is locked

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Although the preaching theory is good
Feb 28, 2015 1:52AM PST

I beg to differ with his 'insistence' that Christians were worse 'persecutors'.....the Crusades were not about persecution of 'non-believers' but rather they were defending themselves against the Muslims who actually the persecutors and out to wipe the Christians off the face of the earth.....just as they are doing now by radical Islamists. The rest of the Muslim world, in order to defend their own insight into their own religion, are the ones who are standing by and allowing not only Christians, Jews, and others of other faiths be killed, but are also allowing the slaughter of their own because they are not radical about their religion. Until those 'moderate' Muslims can be convinced to rise up against the smaller radical group/groups, they are allowing their millions of moderates to be silenced and eventually be eradicated.

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How very true
Feb 28, 2015 3:50AM PST

and I suspect many who claim to be Christian vilify the Crusades as a way to distance themselves from the Catholic church. Perhaps they too are stuck in another age...that of the "Protestant Reformation". Here's a long read but

The Truth about Islamic Crusades and Imperialism

it gives a better picture of what led up to the pope's action in calling for European kings to recognize what was already growing in their midst...to put aside their petty grievances against one another and join to fight an enemy that would soon be rattling swords in their own back yards. One could say that the Crusades were a monumental failure or at least only accomplished temporary relief in a small area of the world. The crusading armies were not a trained and disciplined group. None of us were around but we're free to write our own stories as to whether they were heroes or villains. Keep in mind that messaging and battlefield orders didn't travel at the speed of light but it took days weeks and months for leaders or organizers to know what was going on.

In any event, I've read and it could almost seem to be that we're witnessing a repeat of the events that led up to someone needing to recognize what would happen if no one stood up to take down the monster that was growing stronger by the day. Didn't Churchill warn about Hitler as well...and how many died before anyone got off their duff to try and take him out? Obama....are you listening?

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It is being done, by the non-violent standards of
Mar 1, 2015 4:15AM PST

the first Christians. Paul wrote, "For we know the One who said: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." But that was aimed at Christians who might be weakening in their faith, not to godless pagans. Happy
In re those, he advised, "Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "'Vengeance is mine; I will repay,' says Jehovah." But "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."

And it works. (8.2 million and growing.) None of whom [now] owns a C4 vest. (Some of us did.)
More information here. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2015-yearbook/

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(NT) That is what I was talking about.
Mar 1, 2015 4:16AM PST
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During Hitler's era
Mar 1, 2015 5:51AM PST

as Jews were being slaughtered, and before other countries got involved in stopping that action, didn't many Jews not only create 'underground' pathways to 'freedom' for many Jews and actually take up arms against the Germans to hold them at bay, at least for as long as they could? Do you not believe at all in defending yourself against extinction? Do you think non-believers in the radical Islam movement should just scurry away to 'safer locations' or try to appease their killing appetite with 'food or drink' and that that attitude will stop them from killing them? Israel has already told all Jews across the world who are targets to come to Israel......do you think gathering them all in one place won't make them an easier target to wipe them out more quickly with a barrage of well placed/directed missiles or bombs from nearby whack-jobs since they are already surrounded by so many?

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Peter said similar words
Mar 1, 2015 6:17AM PST

and the same thoughts noted go back to the OT so Peter and Paul were probably citing from those. To me, the context sounds like these are individual values to which one should aspire. There's nothing to say one should lay down and die rather than defend ones self and family. Any such thought is surely a wrong interpretation of scripture. A much better philosophy, IMO, is that where one understands which acts are evil by nature and does not fight evil by imposing a greater evil. That's one thing the "eye for an eye" metaphor addresses.

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"A much better philosophy, IMO, is that where one
Mar 2, 2015 4:07AM PST

understands which acts are evil by nature and does not fight evil by imposing a greater evil."
Greater by whose standards? The Christian's answer ought to be 'By God's standards only.' That's the context of Paul's words.
Look at James. He works himself into a killing frenzy over groups far beyond his power to influence. And all the time he carries in his pocket the answer, on the coins. Same answer his "god" gave at Mt 6:9,10. I don't call Jesus God, but I believe what he says. James does, and doesn't. Happy
What about you? We find an answer at Rev 4:11. How does it read in your Bible?

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James
Mar 2, 2015 4:24AM PST
"Look at James. He works himself into a killing frenzy over groups far beyond his power to influence."

More slander. Killed nobody. No frenzy. Just wouldn't trust you to have my back during a war. I'd save your life if I could in such situation, but realize you never would reciprocate. Such is life and death in the JW camp.

"And all the time he carries in his pocket the answer, on the coins."

Actually, I never carry coins, prefering to toss them into a small jar in my van or give to the kid.

" I don't call Jesus God, but I believe what he says. "

That's the exact sign of an "anti-Christ" and deceiver.

Matthew 26:63-68
But Jesus kept silent And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;


1 John 2:22-23

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

John 12:48

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."


Torn your robes yet? Tired of rejecting Him yet?
For those Judaizers, who denied Jesus as God, which means also addressing the latter day ones called JW's, this passage.

1 John 2:18-4:6 (NIV)
Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


And what did the Father Himself say? Go see Jesus baptism by John and learn of your error and quit being an anti-Christ.
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I'd agree that we'd need to get a good definition of
Mar 2, 2015 5:12AM PST

what is evil and what makes a person an enemy. We could well be talking about trivial disputes or bad blood between the tribes rather than folks who'd want to rip the throats out of anyone that gave them a bad look. As for evil, we know Greek was rather thin in vocabulary. We have words today that grade out everything from naughty to the most dastardly of deeds. Anything that draws disapproval could be referred to as an evil. Surely wanton slaughter goes outside of the general definition of basic evil behavior. In all of this we ask ourselves how would God want us to react to the many and various levels of evil. Should we think God would be displeased with people who intervened in the slaughter of the obedient by the disobedient? Should that intervention be limited to serving them a meal and trying to read to them from the scriptures?...or is a ball bat upside the head sometimes necessary. Happy

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Here's a definition; is it good IYO?
Mar 3, 2015 3:53AM PST

Amos 5:15, "Hate what is bad, and love what is good, Let justice prevail in the city gate. It may be that Jehovah the God of armies Will show favor to the remaining ones of Joseph."
Or, "O you who love Jehovah, hate what is bad. He is guarding the lives of his loyal ones; He rescues them from the hand of the wicked."
"As for evil, we know Greek was rather thin in vocabulary." First Hebrew, now Greek? Are there any languages that have your approval? Happy "We have words today that grade out everything" That saying, 'The Greeks had a word for it' is not used without meaning. Example: five different Greek words for our "love". Example: "Knowledge" is "gnosis". (The gn became our kn, as in kneeling.) The bible also talks about a superior level of knowledge in one word, "epignosis". We need two, "accurate knowledge", as in Rom 10:2, "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge [epignosis]." (That might apply e.g. to those, claiming to be Christian, who zealously preach a God other than Jehovah.) "Epi" is a Gk preposition, "over" or "on". It's used in microelectronics to describe the top layer of a chip, the epi layer. So, 'the top layer of knowledge'.
"Should we think God would be displeased with people who merely drink too much, who are merely greedy, who merely steal? 1 Cor 6:9,10 doesn't use the word "merely"; it just says these people "will not inherit God's Kingdom." Our Bible has a cross-reference here, to Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all people and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord." You can check here http://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=caleb to see how we caution our kids against "merely", with no talk of hellfire. (And now we're worried that Caleb and Sophia get fan mail; creature worship! Happy )
For much of this it's just a matter of getting to know Jehovah, all else follows from that. Pro 2. Can you do that in a religion that 'dares not speak his name'?

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Ouch! Ya' got me! I meant Hebrew
Mar 3, 2015 9:04AM PST

I plead innocent by reason of information overload. As for languages and writing, none seem to translate or transliterate perfectly. That's the basis for a lot of argument. Some make a living off by arguing. Some argue so much they never get anything useful done. As for arguing religion, I'm fairly well done with comparing and contrasting the various beliefs and centering on one that scores a ringer with every pitch. I find that seeking that which is held in common is far more useful than squabbling over differences. Wouldn't it be better if those who believed in loving creator and who felt Jesus to have been a wonderful teacher could use those thoughts and teachings by joining together to do useful work rather than openly bicker? Does it make sense squabble in the presence of those for whom a person is called to set an example of what is good? Can you envision a world like today? I'd say if it's not done today it may not be done at all...ever. Wink

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BTW there
Mar 5, 2015 5:18AM PST

are four Gk words for love, not five. Storge, philos, agape and eros. Only #4 not found in the Bible. (Doesn't have to mean sexual love, although that's included.) Most in scripture are agape.
In fact your last sentence is contrary to scripture- any version. Compare Ps 37:10 in all your Bibles e.g.
And I believe I've mentioned here that "LORD" is not a translation of Jehovah, it's a substitution. Many Bible prefaces admit this.
For much of this it's just a matter of getting to know Jehovah, all else
follows from that. Pro 2; John 17:3. Can you do that in a religion that 'dares not
speak his name'?

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(NT) Can you apply Rev 4:11 here?
Mar 3, 2015 3:57AM PST
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And it works. (8.2 million and growing.) None of whom [now]
Mar 2, 2015 4:02AM PST

owns a C4 vest. (Some of us did.)
In Europe our numbers about doubled during WWII. Senior field commanders and civilians were cleared to execute JWs on capture. About 2000 of us died, out of tens of thousands under Nazi control. Likewise in the camps the death sentence was mandated for refusing to do war work, which was our position. Very few died. How come? What happened to German thoroughness?
During Stalin's era we relived the increase at Acts 8:1,4. Many sent to Siberia, where they settled after the fall of Stalinism and then Communism. Still there, still witnessing.
Now being persecuted in Putin's Russia, at the instigation of the Orthodox Church, whose agenda fits with that of the government. When it does no longer someone else will dynamite the onion towers. In the meantime we still preach.
The Bible says, and many thinking people agree, that badness will increase and that man's governments will be unable to stop it. Only the Bible offers a reasonable alternative- a stronger government. Gen 1:1.
All at jw.org.

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and all of those quotes
Mar 1, 2015 9:56PM PST

were first given in the Old Testament when and where the Jews defended themselves by military might against insurgents and enemies.

"jehovah will judge his people"

"vengeance is mine, I will repay"

I've already several times straightened you out about the difference of deadly actions one must defend against versus those "enemies" who are merely insulting. Yes, "if possible" then promote peace with such offenders, but it's also recognized that it's impossible to do so for those intent on murder and mayhem.

Also, go again and check what David said to the wife of Nabal concerning what "taking vengeance" really meant and cease perverting the meaning of the phrase.

I Samuel chapter 25


30 "And
it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord
according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall
have appointed thee ruler over Israel; That
this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord,
either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged
himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then
remember thine handmaid. And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. For in very deed, as
the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting
thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not
been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the
wall. So David received of her hand that
which she had brought him, and said unto her, Go up in peace to thine
house; see, I have hearkened to thy voice, and have accepted thy person."


David, killing enemies of Israel, no blood guilt, but would have faced such for killing someone who had only insulted him and his men, this is what it meant to "take vengeance" or to have "avenged myself". It means to kill someone for "dissing" you, that is the guilt, not defense of war. Most everyone else but you it seems can see and recognize it as such. You have closed your mind to the truth of scripture, blinded by NWT doctrine. If you have anything from Watch Tower, with NWT on it, with Kingdom Hall, and similar, take it outside and burn it like heresy and go back to the real Bible.

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When the earthquake hit Haiti the first significant
Mar 2, 2015 4:15AM PST

aid came across the border from Witnesses in the Dominican Republic. Not just first aid, but doctors, nurses, tents, food... I read the approving Dominican newspaper coverage of it online, and almost all the comments were negative ones about us, just like yours. No matter what the topic, the posters put down poison boilerplate that they had learned from like minds, just like yours. Almost all the posts portraying, inadvertantly, their ignorance of who we are and what we believe, just like yours.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2015-yearbook/history/earthquake-in-haiti/

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I've never said
Mar 2, 2015 4:30AM PST

anything negative about what JW may have done in Haiti. Don't know where you got that one. What of those who weren't JW and did the same, or even more. What of those who weren't Christian and helped them?