General discussion

I know it's just a little bitty Obama lie......

and for many it's not hardly mentioning. So, from conflicting statements such as these should we really consider him to be a liar and question other statements he's made?

A, or B?

A- Barack Obama: "...My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian."

B- Barack Obama: "I was not raised in a religious household. For my mother, organized religion too often dressed up closed-mindedness in the garb of piety, cruelty and oppression in the cloak of righteousness."

Barack Obama, defines what being Christian means: " Somebody who believes in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior,"
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2007/12/22/4436605-obama-asked-about-connection-to-islam

Bhttp://atheism.about.com/od/barackobamareligionfaith/a/ObamaReligion.htm

Barack Obama: " I didn't become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college."
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/granju/2009/02/how-obama-became-a-christian.html

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Can't find it again but I do remember reading that

becoming Christian was a recommendation from his "handlers" at the time if he wanted to further his political career. It would make sense from that standpoint but I lost track of the article. Ergo...it's speculation and nothing else. Of course, in the heat of the political season, speculation is more prevalent than fact.

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(NT) Read all about it by clicking the listed links.
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There's not much I consider reliable

in the blogosphere but I always love it when someone claims to be Christian but needs to find a church that fits their own beliefs. Well...., If Christian, aren't they supposed to look for what Jesus believes? Wink

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(NT) Try nbcnews.com link and Obama's books.
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Not sure what you're asking

I didn't see anything in your links that referenced what I mentioned...though I could easily have missed something. I really have no personal interest in knowing what branch, denomination, sect, or whatever else there might be about Obama's connection to Christian faith. In the US today, there's nothing about announcing one's faith that works in favor of a candidate. It only provides ammo for those who would criticize. Romney is already feeling it though it could be worse for him. President Obama isn't stupid and he won't wear a brand name label as far as his religious choice. He remain a generic. Generic is non-threatening to him. Personally, I'd prefer that reporters not press religious issues with the candidates. They never do it for good reasons. They don't do much anything else for good reasons either. Wink

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It's the lie, not the choice of religion......

that is most bothersome. But, I agree that the media should focus on more important issues than religion unless religon becomes an issue.

However, my question is since he lied already is he really trustworthy? Should we believe him when he says that he never heard the bile spewing mouth of Jeremiah Wright preach a controversal sermon?
The more I think about it there's a lot of remarks he's made that are questionable.

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RE: Should we believe him when he says that he never heard
Should we believe him when he says that he never heard the bile spewing mouth of Jeremiah Wright preach a controversal sermon?

What purpose would acknowledging/naming Jeremiah Wright serve? It would just give Wright a larger audience.

Just pretend he doesn't exist....don't give him a platform.
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Lies, Lawless and Arrogance

2 Thessalonians 2

English Standard Version (ESV)
The Man of Lawlessness

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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OK lyle, you said that religion should not be an issue...

... unless it becomes an issue. Wait, what? But it wasn't an issue till you raised it.

You make it an issue, yet you don't want to take responsibility for doing so? Yeah, that is one of the silliest posts I have seen all week.

You want to pick quotes out of the air, Obama grew up in a household that was not "formally religious" and contrast this with him saying he became formally religious many years later and characterize this as proof that the man has lied. Lyle, the man plainly states there were many religious books in his house. Are you saying that he is disqualified from being Christian in your eyes, because there was more than the Bible on the families book shelf?

Sorry Lyle, but your being disingenuous at best. You raised the issue. You searched out sources to support your questions about his musings on religion. One is dated from 2007 so it is certainly not contemporary. You wanted to call the man a liar so you went searching for some evidence that could be said supports your theory.

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The Lying was the issue

The subject of the lies was about religion. It wasn't Lyle that chose the subject for the lies, but Obama. Also it's not a comparison to where Obama was and then where he ended up in his belief, but how he related about the same time period concerning him and his mother. As for extra books on the table, what if one was the Bible and the other was Playboy or Hustler magazines? Liar is as liar does and it's not someone else's fault if they notice the lies.

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From what I understand of his activity as a

community organizer, the training included some understandings of what motivates people. People are motivated not so much by what they give to others but by what's in it for them. The training is a form of marketing and manipulation. You convince someone you are working for them while you're really working for your own objectives. Marketing is about creating perception and not about revealing the truth. Those who engage in this practice don't see it as telling lies. Others do. I'm not going to call Obama a blatant liar. He is a manipulator of people and quite skilled. I do sense that Romney is a more "genuine" person who has a difficult time with twisting the truth. I'm not sure that all people today want to hear the truth as much as they want to hear what makes them feel good.

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That's worse than a blatant Liar

That includes the practiced elements of Deception which would depend on more than just Lies alone.

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following your logic, Steven...

Mormons believe what Jesus believed so that makes them Christian. However, many Christians still don't believe that Mormons are Christian for numerous reasons, including the willingness of Mormons to use the Book of Mormon.

I guess Christianity in in the heart of the believer... and whomever that Christian wants to condemn as a non believer? Well, to Hell with them.

I think looking for inconsistencies in defining who is and is not a Christian is like trying to haul water with a fishing net. The final result is unlikely to slake anyone's thirst for clarity.

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It may well be that people who concern themselves with

another person's religion are only interested in not having harm come to themselves as a result. That may be OK but it's not the ideal. Otherwise, Jesus would not have made missionary work a major function of the church he was establishing. We are expected to promote our faith. Depending on how we do so, it can cause us some pain. Jesus told us to expect that. Those who hide their faith are not his followers.

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Jesus did not establish a church

He established a religious ideal. He didn't say "he who believes in the church will live even if he dies"

Churches are just the clubs where the members hang out, so they can talk about how they are so cool, compared to the other churches.

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why do you keep embarassing yourself so greatly?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

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Ok, so he built the Catholic Church...

... which you have strayed dangerously from, thus threatening your eternal soul. Let us hope you come back to mother church before it is too late for you because it is only through the church that you shall be saved.

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Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

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Even the Catholic church does not say that

Never have I learned that only Catholics will reach heaven. That's a common myth but, unfortunately, has been spread by some in my own church. I've even heard priests joke about it from the pulpit. No...that's not what we believe.

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More difficult questions.

Do Muslims reach Heaven?
Did the old Vikings reach Walhalla, and is that the same as our Heaven?

Kees

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You aren't asking anything that hasn't been

hashed over by parlors full of theologians or coffee houses full of hippies. Did either of these ever come up with an answer? Then why ask me? Happy

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(NT) Sorry.
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Kees...no apology needed. I was kidding

With the morning coffee kicking in and your Viking/Walhalla mention, all that came to mind was Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries".

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re: only Catholics will reach heaven.

Sure, only Catholics will reach heaven... unless you're Baptist, and then only Baptists will go, unless you're Lutheran... unless you're Anglican... unless you're Episcopalian... unless you're........

The whole point is that James wants to pull quotes out of his butt when it serves the purpose of diverting the argument. Reality (and the history of man) has shown that Christianity has been as diverse as Islam is right now, and has been just as full of violent sectarian infighting, too. There are literally hundreds of christian sects out there and each is willing to question the salvation of other sects who don't follow the exact same protocol as they do.

A church has nothing to do with religion except that it helps some people organize and direct how other people will conduct their lives.

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Actually I don't know

any Christian that thinks only his denomination will get to Heaven.

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Seriously Glenda ?

You have never, ever..... in your life..... known a christian who disparaged another christian for going to the wrong church?

I have seen a couple self proclaimed christians on this very forum disparage and doubt the sincerity of another christians' christianity just because they went to the wrong church.

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Christianity vs Error

There's a difference between claiming someone isn't a Christian and claiming they are a Christian in error. Even in my discussions with dpruner, I've never said he wasn't a Christian as a Jehovah's Witness, but that in some beliefs I consider him in error. When all pass through the fire, what's uselss straw will be burned off and what is precious will remain.

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Haven't heard the old joke?

A Baptist got to heaven and saw all these walled neighborhoods. When he asked about them, he was told that each one was those people were different denominations that believed that only their denominations made it to heaven.

Diana

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It's more in the learning

No one becomes a scientist by learning about science. They learn by experiencing it from the right teachers and finding abilities within themselves. No one knows Christianity by learning about Jesus. If they can learn by being taught by those who teach in the way Jesus taught, they may find those principles within themselves.

I think it's regrettable to have such a cynical viewpoint of anything. I, too, have my own cynicisms. Those won't change unless I change. Maybe too often we fear the idea of finding ourselves to be incorrect. It can be devastating. We tend to search out only that which reinforces our thinking rather than being open to that which might show us to be wrong.

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People with his attitude

often have something that went wrong in their life and so they blame God for that, even though it was something they did themselves to cause it, or they were a victim of someone else's crime. God gets blamed for a lot He never did.

There was this dog howling outside a western shack. His friend asked the owner why the dog was howling. The dog's master replied "Because he's sat on a cactus". "Why then doesn't he get up off the cactus" asked his friend. "Because he's too lazy, he want's me to go pick him up instead" replied the master. Grim would blame God or his master for him sitting on the cactus in the first place.

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