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I have found the strangest site,which castigates George Bush

by Ziks511 / October 25, 2006 5:31 PM PDT

on religious grounds. It's more like something that would incline to attack his opponents. I grant you it's totally over the top, but he's not usually the object of Christian wrath.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1770.cfm

Just thought you might be interested in it, I am in no way endorsing its peculiar conclusions or its tortured logic.

Rob

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The frightening thing is that...
by Angeline Booher / October 25, 2006 9:35 PM PDT

... there are actually people who read such drivel, and take it to heart! Otherwise, it would be laughable.

Just another downside of the internet. And more ammunition for those who think all Christians are like the guy who wrote that stuff.

I hope the site didn't put a cookie on my PC.

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

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'tempting faith' author said this
by WOODS-HICK / October 25, 2006 10:13 PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Is there ANY evidence of that ridiculous notion?
by Evie / October 25, 2006 10:36 PM PDT
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maybe in the book?
by WOODS-HICK / October 25, 2006 10:58 PM PDT

I have not read it nor did I write it. kuo was a deputy director of one of the presidents favorite initiatives. funding was never passed by congress btw.

but the notion has not escaped others, from may 2004:

''While the Virginia colony brought 18th-century rationalism to America, and supplied four of its first five presidents (Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe), the New England puritans of Massachusetts gave Americans an intensely dramatic and emotional sense of their peculiar predicament. They were an exception among nations, uniquely favoured by Providence. They alone enjoyed the liberty to walk with God according to their own lights. They were a people of faith beleaguered on all sides by wicked spirits. Cleaving to their faith, they must distrust ''imperfect reason'' (Mather's phrase) as a means of discerning the mystery of creation and the visible world around them. Not least, the Puritan plain style (Mather warned writers of ''muses no better than harlots'' and of prose ''stuck with as many jewels as the gown of a Russian ambassador''), which owed much to the teaching of Peter Ramus, the French philosopher and rhetorician, made these ideas accessible to the least educated, and gave them the unvarnished vigour that they still have today. The remarkable survival of this 17th-century worldview in 21st-century America has as much to do with style as with theological substance: people who would now find Jefferson or Madison hard going could easily thrill to the words of Mather, John Winthrop, the rollicking hellfire poet Michael Wigglesworth, or the poet of domestic sublimity Anne Bradstreet.

The Puritans live! And the shrewd men of the Bush administration have expertly hotwired the president to the galvanic energy-source of Puritan tradition. It's as if America, since 9/11, has been reconstituted as a colonial New England village: walled-in behind a stockade to keep out Indians (who were seen as in thrall to the devil); centred on its meeting house in whose elevated pulpit stands Bush, the plain-spun preacher, a figure of nearly totalitarian authority in the community of saints. The brave young men of the village are out in the wilderness, doing the Lord's work, fighting wicked spirits who would otherwise be inside the stockade, burning down Main Street and the meeting house. That, at least, is how the presidential handlers have tried to paint things, and, given the continuing power of the American Puritan tradition, it's not very surprising that a likely electoral majority have gratefully accepted the picture at its face value: that the proportions are all wrong (the world's remaining superpower simply won't fit into the space of a pious, beleaguered village) doesn't matter, for the administration has successfully tapped into a toxic national mythos.

Faith rules. After a faltering start to his presidency, Bush found his role in the aftermath of the attacks of September 2001 as America's pastor-in-chief. His inarticulacy without a script was an earnest of his humility and sincerity, his dogmatic certitude a measure of his godly inspiration. ''His way of preaching was very plain,'' as Mather wrote of John Eliot of Roxbury, Massachusetts, ''He did not starve [the people] with empty and windy Speculations.'' Confronted a couple of weeks ago with the CIA's grim forecast of mounting unrest and possible civil war in Iraq, Bush airily said, ''they were just guessing''. The president doesn't guess. As he intimates to his congregation on every possible occasion, his intelligence is leaked to him by He Who Holds the Stars in His Right Hand.''

excerpt from: Pastor Bush

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I've heard him speak on
by Dan McC / October 26, 2006 12:12 AM PDT

several occasions and the notion of token evangelical is just what he's talking about.

Dan Happy

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Only the author's word, it appears ...
by Bill Osler / October 26, 2006 8:51 AM PDT

However, the claims of this author actually match some of my previous speculation about how people of faith are/have been used by people at BOTH ends of the political spectrum at one time or another.

Personally, I do not generally trust people with secular power who claim that they act in the name of God. Maybe they do, but mostly they do not.

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Invoking the name of God in the US has become
by Steven Haninger / October 26, 2006 10:03 AM PDT

an act of political suicide...at least as I see it. I would conjecture that George Bush has made fewer direct references to God or used biblical quotes than many past presidents though, if asked, he is quite open about his beliefs. My own thought is that claiming to act in God's name does not make a person good. It's God acting within the person...quite silently and without expecting credit...that does so. Happy

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(NT) (NT) Unless you're a Democrat . :-(
by Evie / October 26, 2006 12:55 PM PDT
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(NT) I don't see anyone claiming to act in the name of God
by Evie / October 27, 2006 11:08 PM PDT
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But the Liberals said
by duckman / October 27, 2006 11:17 PM PDT

That Bush said that GOD told him ...............

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Flogging a dead horse, but announcing: "I feel God wants me
by Ziks511 / October 29, 2006 12:35 PM PST

to run for President" (or "to be President", I forget which) and then running is tantamount to "acting in the name of God". At least it is inseparable in the eyes and ears of those of us not "Born Again". Many Pro-Life groups also claim to be acting in the name of God. Many clergymen use the phrase "in the name of God" as an exhortation, or as a command. Many Muslim fundamentalists believe that they are acting in the name of God, though the vast majority of them would never act as terrorists (though they might give money or shelter).

In fact lots of the faithful of various religions in one way or another feel they are acting in the name of God. Certainly Scots Presbyterians in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, as was accurately reflected in the dialogue of the Scots missionary in Chariots of Fire (a true story incidentally), believed they were acting in the name of God. Indeed missionaries generally believe and believed that they were acting in the name of and for the glory of God.

I, on the other hand, while knowing the accuracy and historicity of what I say about Presbyterians, am offering only my own opinion on the rest of these issues.

Rob

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'I feel God wants me to' is a normal Christian response.
by Kiddpeat / October 29, 2006 2:41 PM PST

It does NOT mean 'God told me to'. It also is NOT understood to be 'acting in the name of God' in ANY specific sense or action. Christians act in faith to do what they think or believe God wants them to do. Sometimes this is based on specific written commands, but actions are always based on faith. There is no certainty in a situation based on faith. Faith is what the Christian life is all about. It is more than a word.

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Give it up KP ...
by Evie / October 29, 2006 11:24 PM PST

... there are a core group of Bush haters that cannot possibly understand basic Christian beliefs.

Evie Happy

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Unfortunately, quite right.
by Kiddpeat / October 30, 2006 12:59 AM PST
In reply to: Give it up KP ...

Perhaps cannot is the wrong word. The New Testament talks about those who deliberately suppress the truth lest the light shine on their actions and motives.

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Yes flogging a dead horse ...
by Evie / October 29, 2006 11:22 PM PST

... and the wrong one died in the process Rob. "At best" it's not tantamount to anything but having a faith and feeling that divine intervention has played a part in one's life.

Non-believers should really not try to understand believers. They simply can't and trying to do so only makes them look foolish.

I'm still waiting for any evidences of this ridiculous assertion of a Pastor Bush.

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I'm not even religious and I understand it perfectly...
by EdH / October 30, 2006 12:27 AM PST

but the details of the ways of us lowly proles are difficult to discern from the lofty perch the superior one occupies.

In his mind anyway.

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As I remember, Evie...
by J. Vega / October 30, 2006 11:28 AM PST

Evie, as I remember that supposed statement was something that someone recalled him saying in a private conversation on the floor of a covention before he was President. In other words, hearsay, reported years after the fact.
What I found unusual is putting that statement in quotes, and then turning around and saying that he couldn't remember the exact quote. I would think that when you put something in quotes as "proof" the quote should be an exact quotation.

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Sorry Mr Vega but there's videotape of him saying it.
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2006 3:21 PM PST
In reply to: As I remember, Evie...

It was broadcast on PBS where I saw it.

Rob

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Sorry Mr. Boyter, but you'll have to ...
by Evie / October 30, 2006 6:06 PM PST

... cough up that video.

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It's being stored in the ''CAFE'' folder
by duckman / October 30, 2006 7:34 PM PST

along with the "Daddy" tapes

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Don't you remember, Evie...
by EdH / October 30, 2006 8:34 PM PST

How the Democrats used that videotaped quote over and over in their ads in the 2004 election? And the news media played it ad nauseum also. Don't you remember?

Neither do I.

Is there a full moon yet? Oowwwwoooooo!

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Not a smoking gun ...
by Bill Osler / October 30, 2006 8:36 PM PST

But, I suppose this is evidence of a sort:
frontline: the jesus factor: introduction | PBS
'I believe that God wants me to be president.'

Another view of the quote includes some context and at least implies that there is more than just one person's remote memory of a snippet:
George Bush and God | A hot line to heaven | Economist.com
?I BELIEVE that God wants me to be president.? What? Did George Bush really say that? Does the president imagine he has a divine mission?

Well, he was quoted to that effect by Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention. The full quote, however, does not quite sound as if Mr Bush is labouring to scrap the republic and replace it with a theocracy. ?But if that doesn't happen, that's okay,? the president continued, ?I have seen the presidency up close and personal. I know it's a sacrifice, and I don't need it for personal validation.?


IMO, the question of whether Mr. Bush has invoked God as the author of his policies is complex and not likely to be decided from 'sound bites' or brief snippets of text. That also makes it hard to discuss the question intelligently in a forum like this.

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Not only not a smoking gun...
by EdH / October 30, 2006 8:51 PM PST
In reply to: Not a smoking gun ...

but evidence that Mr. Vega was correct in his assertion that it was hearsay.

I think it is easy to determine. If such a videotape existed there can be no doubt whatsoever that the President's detractors would be playing it and linking to it endlessly. But they are not.

If anything, this "issue" is evidence to me of the intellectual vacuity of Bush's critics.

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That's quite an intellectual leap ...
by Bill Osler / October 30, 2006 9:09 PM PST
If anything, this "issue" is evidence to me of the intellectual vacuity of Bush's critics.

I don't see that. The relationship between faith and politics is far too complex to allow any meaningful discussion of the topic in this forum. Whether or not the Bush quote is accurate is mildly interesting, but it really is not decisive in sorting out the extent to which Mr. Bush's self reported faith is influencing his policy choices.

You are correct, the sources I posted are hearsay, and I did not imply otherwise. That does not mean the the quote is inaccurate. I merely pointed to the quote as the only evidence (however weak) I've found so far. Hearsay is not always acceptable as legal evidence, but it shows up in a lot of the posts here so I'm not sure what your objection is. Personally I doubt that there is a video of Mr. Bush making a statement of the kind reported, and not just for the reason you mentioned. Why would anybody have been taping his personal conversations at that convention? Mr. Bush was not yet a major national player at that time. My suspicion is that the remembered video is one of Mr. Land recounting the conversation.
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I said evidence, not proof....
by EdH / October 30, 2006 9:25 PM PST

the fact is the Bush bashers seize upon every opportunity, real or imagined, to claim Bush is an idiot or a facist or unfit because of his faith.

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We probably agree on part of that ...
by Bill Osler / October 30, 2006 10:52 PM PST
the fact is the Bush bashers seize upon every opportunity, real or imagined, to claim Bush is an idiot or a facist or unfit because of his faith.

I don't doubt that some Bush critics use his professed faith as evidence of his unfitness, ... As an Evengelical, I don't agree with that particular basis for their criticism. However, the fact that they are wrong to criticize his faith does not necessarily make them wrong about his fitness or intelligence.

My reference to 'evidence' actually had nothing to do with your preceding post. Evie said: I'm still waiting for any evidences of this ridiculous assertion of a Pastor Bush I offered weak evidence in response to her request for 'any evidences'. I suspect that she was asking for any substantive credible evidence, but sometimes you get what you ask for instead of what you want. Don't shoot the messenger.

Personally, I don't have any complaint about Bush's reported remark. If he believed God wanted him to be president then it was not unreasonable for him to say so. I'm more troubled by what I regard as cynical manipulation of Evangelical Christians as part of a political strategy. I will not pretend to know whether or not Mr. Bush is actually a Christian, and he personally may not be manipulating anybody. That does not mean the Republican political leadership is innocent.

I do not pretend to know how much of Mr. Bush's policy is driven by his professed faith. Personally I would like to see Mr. Bush address that question rather than letting his critics control the debate.
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It may be that....
by EdH / October 30, 2006 11:13 PM PST

he feels addressing the question gives his critics more validity and that when they mock him for being religious they just insult people and harm their own case. Some of the criticisms have been pretty outlandish IMHO.

I don't really see that much religious influence on Bush's policies.

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not a water pistol either
by WOODS-HICK / October 30, 2006 9:23 PM PST
In reply to: Not a smoking gun ...

"The day he was inaugurated there were several of us who met with him at the governor's mansion," says Dr. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. "And among the things he said to us was, 'I believe that God wants me to be president.'"

I never saw any video either and I agree we would have seen it a more than the 'dean scream'. the hearsay is from a person with credentials, unless he was only promoting christianity. he might have used the statement to add value to christian beliefs.

I personally do not find the god statement troubling, many people believe they are doing god's work.

hearsay is also the only proof that mr bush volunteered for viet nam. sometimes hearsay is acceptable.

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Skull and Bones..a Yale secret society
by Steven Haninger / October 26, 2006 10:26 AM PDT

Sounds to me like some silly college organization with no real purpose. They seem to be fixed on that as a major piece of evidence of George Bush's unsuitability to represent Christian peoples. Since it was reported that John Kerry was/is also a member, this must mean they don't care much for him either...and there must be others as well. As such, I doubt they could be singling out GB among the many presidential wanabes. There are probably very few who could meet their standards....whatever those standards are.

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Skull and Bones...
by EdH / October 26, 2006 12:48 PM PDT

also a graphic novel written and illustrated by me. I'd give a URL, but that would be spamming.

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