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General discussion

I enjoy puzzling over almost anything that catches my

Feb 11, 2010 7:44PM PST

attention, wheter pointless or not. I have been puzzling over the origin of the separation of ways of counting on your fingers, or rather displaying a count on your fingers. It seems to be rooted in the separation of Britain, and hence the US and Canada, and the rest of Europe and the Middle East. Perhaps Jonah, and Mark Flax can help here.

This difference is sort of a key plot point in Quentin Tarantino's peculiar war film Inglorious Basterds (sic), when a guy masquerading as a German soldier displays the standard British/American number three with his fingers, i.e. index, middle and ring finger raised, thumb and pinky folded down. In Europe and elsewhere when you count with your fingers you stick out your thumb first, the index finger next and so on to the pinky.

Why the difference? How did it originate? I'd assume that the European style occurred first via Rome, but what caused the British to change despite the influxes of Roman, Saxon and Norman invaders?

I doubt that there's an answer, but fundamental differences in cultures like this are keys into understanding perhaps just a tiny part of what makes us different.

Any offers?

Rob

Discussion is locked

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Well, lets look at our hands and guess
Feb 11, 2010 8:11PM PST

We have fingers of different appearances. We have some that might be easier to distinguish and count at greater distances. We have one that's significantly different in shape, position on the hand, direction it can point, etc. We know that some fingers that we can move independently and some that we struggle to do so. I don't know if genetics plays a part in that finger movement might have developed differently over time among the various branches of human families. I'd guess, somewhere along the line, practicality is at the root and what happened, happened spontaneously rather than around some discussion table.

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the number 3
Feb 11, 2010 11:23PM PST

when younger it was thumb holding little finger down and the bigger 3 fingers stick up. As I aged it became either thumb and next two fingers, or thumb hold forefinger down and let the last 2 stick up.

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you were a carpenter?
Feb 12, 2010 3:16AM PST

thumb hold forefinger down and let the last 2 stick up.


Wink

.,

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(NT) LOL Rob
Feb 13, 2010 1:51PM PST
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(NT) no, I had a magic finger
Feb 12, 2010 9:58AM PST
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The Boy Scout salute, adapted from the British Military
Feb 13, 2010 1:49PM PST

Salute. I wonder if it was adopted because it was different from the normal counting pattern.

There are other problems of gesture communication. When I was in Britain in 1968, the gesture for Intercourse Off, was a raised thumb moved sharply upwards. Trouble was, that everybody thought the driver (not me, I'm more patient) was giving them the very positive thumbs up. It took him weeks to figure out that the British equivalent was that ancient reversed V for victory, also with the sharp upward emphasis.

Of course for an entire language of gestural swearing is Italy. I can't begin to decipher those gestures, except that in France and Italy the two-finger sign is a half raised fist with a slap on the inside of the elbow. Sheakespeare in Romeo and Juliet has a bit of by-play over "Do you bite your thumb at me, Sir." which while Italian so far as I know, was understood in Elizabethan England.

I'm sure this is a major segment of Anthropological Studies in some Universities.

Rob
b

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(NT) fling the five in Greece
Feb 13, 2010 9:35PM PST
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some fingers that we can move independently
Feb 12, 2010 3:22AM PST
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age
Feb 11, 2010 11:20PM PST

I count by fingers different than when younger because it fits my stiffer digits now.

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Too true !! I've moved over to the European system, becaus
Feb 13, 2010 1:54PM PST

it's easier on my joints.

Rob

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good movie BTW
Feb 12, 2010 3:13AM PST

was the guy in the movie counting? or saying "3"?

for me, index, middle and ring finger raised,
thumb and pinky folded down is the answer to
"how many beers?"

.,

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(NT) Funny, that's exactly what he was indicating. RTB
Feb 13, 2010 1:55PM PST
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Me to
Feb 12, 2010 5:40AM PST

Why do the hairs in my ears grow faster than the hairs on my head.

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The thumb and the next two fingers for me.
Feb 12, 2010 5:46AM PST

But I guess that's a sign of old age creeping in.

Mark

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But is that how you learned to count, or is it an
Feb 13, 2010 2:07PM PST

accomodation to less flexible joints? That's my excuse.

Rob

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I also remember counting by 5s
Feb 12, 2010 6:36AM PST

Using hands, it began with the forefinger, worked to the pinkie and ended with the thumb. But on paper, we drew 4 vertical lines and a diagonal through them when we reached 5. Each set was counted and multiplied by 5 and the remainder added in any uncompleted set. I've no idea why we learned this but it must have once had a use. Perhaps, if you recall that counting method, you might care to while away a few hours trying to determine its origin and use. My guess might be that it had something to do with dirt as drawing media and sticks as writing instruments. Happy

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The 4 vertical strokes with a cross,is a pre-numerical habit
Feb 13, 2010 2:05PM PST

which has persisted because it's faster and more convenient than writing down one, then crossing it off and writing 2, etc.

Early counting was recorded on sticks which were then split in half lengthwise so that both parties of the transaction had a true copy of the count. If the seller cut a couple of the notches off and then presented it, he was presenting "the short end of the stick" The buyer might accept it with some adjustment, or he might refuse the transaction all together, and brand the seller a cheat. Equally if the buyer tried to add notches, they wouldn't show up on the other original half of the stick.

Rob