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I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDATE**

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Of course it's not in there.

In reply to: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDATE**

Jesus said to love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you. These acts are reprehensible, and, I'll guess, are condemned by the local Christian churches. The woman does not mention church opposition, and commends the sheriff for protecting her.

Simply living in a community that embraces Christianity does not guarantee that there is no one in the community who will do evil things. Christianity operates at the level of individuals. It does not operate at the community level. That is, one is not a Christian just because one lives in a particular community. It must be a personal decision made by each person. Some believe, and some do not. Some obey, and some do not.

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Re: Of course it's not in there.

In reply to: Of course it's not in there.

Was trying to figure out how to state what I felt about this topic, KP, and you said it better than I ever could have.

I really do hate it when people hide behind a religion to justify their actions. The people behind the animal mutilations and harrassment of this lady are no different, IMO, than the terrorists. Just on a different scale is all. They are not Christians (or Buddhists, or Muslims, etc., etc.), they are hypocrits and criminals.

--Marcia

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Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

In reply to: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDATE**

I only hope for them that the Wiccan way is correct - that those who do harm have it come back upon themselves three-fold! These sick $%^&*(s!!!! They claim to do this in the name of Jesus and no doubt in peace, when they torture and take the life of innocent animals and torment the woman! If their Christian beliefs are correct, that ought to land them in the lowest plain of Dante's vision of hell, where they deserve to be!

What they choose to ignore is that not only do witches not believe in the devil or in hell, but they also are the original children of nature, and would not dream of harming people, animals, or even plants, beyond what is neceesary to eat and survive, or to aid in healing, and no killing is done with evil intent. Can these lowlife scum say the same about themselves? Not at all! Yet I'll bet they feel infinitely superior to her! Idiots probably believe in sci-fi garbage and believe that her animals are her 'familiars" or some such other rot! Of course, even if they were presented with the truth, they would not accept it, so no use in even talking to that type! "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, so long as it harm no one." Sound famliar? (And that's from the extremist sectors that this woman probably would not even relate to). Wel apparently they missed that part too.

I don't care WHAT religion, race or creed, etc., someone is; that is not cause to torment them or their family, friends, or animals. This is just as dark and perverse as the times of the Inquisition with people behaving that badly. Witchcraft became a legally recognized religion in the United States in the early 1950's, and is practiced and accepted even in the military as a righteous religion. So much for coming to America for religious freedom! I hope they are caught for a little instant karma to add to what they should have coming to them at their final checkout and accounting!

And did you notice that no one has offered to set up a fund to help her or to get some support going for her situation? You can bet that would be happening in a heartbeat if it were persecution against another more accepted religion!

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Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

I went to a Wiccan site and found the following:

What Sayeth The Rede?

The "archaically worded" construction "An it harm none, do what ye will," rendered into modern English is literally, "if it doesn't harm anyone, do what you want."

Many modern Wiccans "reverse" the construction, however, taking the first part and putting it after the second to read: "Do what ye will an it harm none," or in modern English "Do what you want if it doesn't harm anyone...."


So, the people claiming to be Wiccans, surely are not.

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Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

My apologies in advance, Dragon. I have a migraine that is making me absolutely punchy now for the fifth day, so I don't really understand what you are saying. (Dreadful spelling and incomplete sentences also a hazzard now, since my brain is hurting too much to be able to do much more than stream of consciousness).

Aleister Crowley is credited with that phrase. Crowley, however, is of the last century, and fell into disrepute when he began using illicit drugs to achieve a state of consciousness that normally comes from fasting and meditation. He started compounding that with sex, drugs, etc., and that didn't go over well at all. He was not considered to be mainstream, and not a representative of all things Wiccan.

Wicca is actually considered to be the oldest religion on earth. It is considered to date back to the caveman times. It is a matriarchal based relgion, with women taking the lead role, contrary to Christianity. it operates on sympathetic magic. That means that images are used to exemplify concepts to be prayed for. For exmple, wearing a headdress of corn will help pray for a large harvest to get through winter months. Wearing a horned headdress shows luck with finding beasts which used to be hunted to keep the families alive. In this, it is very much like the American Indian religions.

Over the years, the religion has been persecuted and driven underground, but has survived in small numbers. It also blossomed into a variety of different sects or forms of the religion, ranging from classic Gardnerian, to some more unusual sects that have arisen since the 1970's.

Since it predates Christianity by thousands of years, there is and was no battle with Christianity and no belief in the devil or hell or any such thing. These are Christian concepts that Wiccans do not identify with. There is an equivalent of Heaven, which is often called Sum(m)erland, a place of eternal beauty and peace where the sun shines, apples grow, and love and tranquility prevail.

Since the 1970's, the groups of drugged-out weirdo-whackos who thought it would be "cool" to be "a witch," have created theories, thousands of books, and generated tons of nonsense, clouding issues about the REAL religion, as they made up junk as they went. It frustrates me to no end to go into Barnes and Noble and see the huge selection of supposed self-help and other nonsensical books, practically Wicca for Dummies, that are now published. I'd estimate at least 70%+ of them are pure bull-puckey. It seems that teenagers played Ozzy Osbourne's music a bit too loud, took some hits of drugs that would never have been allowed in true Wicca, and they saw some "B-rate" horror movies of 100% fiction about supposed Witchcraft, and they decided THAT was their religion. And then some unscrupulous people capitalized on that, and wrote books about what was total nonsense, and they sold. Now it is an industry gone wild, misleading kids and other people each day. It is very hard these days to find a grain of the real relgion or truth with all the garbage out there. BTW, the real religion does not allow kids to join unless their parents gives full consent and/or accompanies - we're talking until age 16 with almost all reputable groups, and some 18 years of age.

There are some unique ceremonies, but nothing that much different in symbolism, if you think about it, than consuming the flesh and blood of Christ in some of the Christian religions, or doing the stations with the icons.

Because Wicca teaches karma, it is believed that any harm you do comes back thrree-fold to you. It is as wrong and immoral to attempt to do harm to someone or something, as it is in any Christian religion, and it is not allowed. Those that do harm other than for necessary protection of self or loved ones, have caused grievous violations of the religious standards. It is even considered 'wrong" to attempt to manipulate things for self-gain (i.e., winning the lottery).

I think I have seen the site that you went to. Any of the sites that use the supposed Old English stuff are pretty much in question from the get-go. No need for it. Some are okay, but after Anna Riva (pet peeve here since when I lecture, I end up dispelling her work all the time), and some others like her have written a ton of books on every conceivable subject matter and almost none of it matches the original religion. But it sells.

No true Wiccan who is not violating their faith, would EVER harm an animal! That would be a dreadful violation since they have pantheistic beliefs in the nature of animals and plants having a right to life too, and the essense of what Christians call "God," is reflected in the complexities that gave them life. When you see this nonsense about animal sacrifice and harming animals, it is by those who following what is in essence either the reverse of the Wiccan relgion or who believe that they are following "Satanism." Again. there is no belief in the devil in Wicca, so there is no devil to turn to unless you are a freak who is confused on what is real and just tries to pervert the Christian religions (most of these seem to be kids who want to be different and freaky in society).

Yes, there are some truly evil cults out there that do kill, torture, and main, but they are not practicing Wicca, and enough on the history and theory of Wiccan practice for one night - lesson over LOL! Lesson two on History of the Devil, and Leeson Three on Cults that Kill will be deferred for now Wink

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(NT) (NT) Re: **Wicca UPDAT.....Thanks Diane, enlightening.

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

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Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

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Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

Thank you for the link, Dragon Happy

I do lectures and consultations, including international consults for law enforcement, animal control, doctors, mental health professionals, probation and the schools. I've been used as an expert witness for a number of years now in this area, and on ritualistic crimes and cults, so yes, there is quite a bit of familiarity with the subject matter.

It also causes me to have a good deal of disgust with some people who call themselves Christians. They show up for the lectures (which are done at the request of specific professional groups), and they kind of crash the lectures to supposedly listen and learn. Then, they chase me out to the parking lot afterwards, telling me I am going to hell and they they are praying for my soul, because they believe that I have tainted myself to have even read some of the books I mention in the lectures. The phone calls, mail (some not nice at all and of a semi-threatening nature) comes in for a few weeks after a lecture. Really stupid, since all I am providing is information, and certainly not advocating any position, and even denouncing any activity that is cruel, harmful, or just not nice.

The worst though, had to be when someone was very upset with one of the lectures and disemboweled a newly killed rabbit on my front porch of my home. They cut off its paws and placed them upright in a greeting gesture, and took the entrails and spread them into symbols to warn me to back off. The Domino's Pizza guy stepped over it when he arrived with our order of pizza. The bunny must have been freshly killed and put there, from the body temp when I examined it after he left. I figured we'd never have anyone willing to deliver pizza to the house after that incident! Sad

Anyone willing to harm a human or animal for sheer malice ought to rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. And like Angeline, I'd like to be able to help send them there! These experiences have led me to understand though that some the fanatical Christians of various denominations really believe that it is their obligation, or whatever, to try and stem the information from being shared almost by any means necessary. That position is idiotic, since my job is to deter the crimes and explain who does what and how and why it happens. It's PREVENTING bad things from happenig in the future, or catching people who have already done harm. But like for the lady back east, they don't care - their bias and fear makes them attack rather than think it through.

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Amazing...!

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

I was reflecting a bit after reading your note, and decided that this -- "...they believe that I have tainted myself to have even read some of the books I mention in the lectures..." -- may be key to their behaviour.

I have often said that we are still in the Dark Ages, but with shinier toys.

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Re: Amazing...! Yep, Dragon. . .

In reply to: Amazing...!

I agree. I just got curious and went over and hunted down one of the many "care packages" I received after a lecture to law enforcement some years ago. I was trying to remember which group had sent me the stuff via a police officer with the local agency.

The organization is CARIS= Christian Apologetics: Research and Information Service. I hate using sites pro one side or the other, but the site exposing some of what these folks stand for is this one: http://www.witchvox.com/protection/kerr_sc_1a.html The leader, Roper, tries to lecture to police officers and agencies, and ends up stirring the pot something fierce. I'm sure they are well-meaning, but it's like that Texas case where the whole town wanted to believe in 1991-92, that there were practicing "Satanists" raping, torturing and eating their children - the frenzy boils the blood of those believers who feel there is a satanist in every closet. They actually turned on the police detective in that case, when he tried to point out that the physical evidence and all proof in the case pointed to something different in the disappearance and presumed death of a girl.

Here's one of their own sites. I'm sure if you look, many of you will find your flavor of Christianity denounced with specific information as to how to convert you and make you see the light their style: http://www.pfo.org/2004tape.htm Here's a lovely example:
"? Generational Curses and Demons Everywhere! ? Tape #0426
Extreme churches are just a hotbed of dealing with demons. Followers are encouraged to undergo ?deliverance? at almost every meeting. Add to this, the teaching of ?generational curses,? and you have the person scrambling to make sure every ancestor?s left-over curses affecting their own lives are dealt with ? over and over. Some Scriptures are used, but are they in context or twisted? We will review what the Bible really teaches concerning demons and curses. Into this murky demonic mix are added humanistic teachings like self-esteem, and inner healing. What is happening to ?Christian counseling?? We need to be informed.

Lorri MacGregor with her husband, Keith, founded in 1979, MacGregor Ministries, a Canadian Countercult Discernment Ministry. They have researched, written, and co-produced six videos dealing with Jehovah?s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, and the counterfeit Christianity found in some Churches. They also have written and produced numerous booklets, tracts, and audio tapes on the subject of the cults and aberrant Christianity. They have a quarterly magazine, as well as maintain two web sites with information on the cults."

Maybe this site can make you understand how these passionate, yet misguided folks feel it is their life's mission to tell me I'm going to hell and chase me through parking lots to try and rid me of the evil. My question to them has always gone unanswered: If I am so evil from having a knowledge of this information, what does that make them to have gained some of that knowledge intentionally by coming to my lecture?

In every lecture, I make it crystal clear that I am vehemently opposed to ANY thought process, no matter what it is called, that causes an individual to try to invoke or evoke what they believe to be the devil or demons to try and to their bidding. A pimply-faced teenager with an Ozzy Osbourne shirt, some black candles, and some grass, who stands in a circle and yells for "Satan" to get down there right now so he/she can make "Satan' do what they want is conceptually ludicrous and insane. If, what they call "Satan" and believe to be the supreme ruler of evil were to really appear, what on eartth makes these fools think that they could control him, like recapping a coke bottle after a drink?!!!!

My point has always been that I don't care if you pray to your petunia bushes, but if you are of a mindset to do thinks that harm others or are just for self-profit, you are cultivating an unhealthy lifestyle and mental outlook,and should not be engaging in that behavior. BTW, I hold that position regardless of whether or not there will ever be proof that their attempts to manipulate the order of the universe work or not. Just the intent and mindset to do it, are unhealthy, in and of themselves, in my mind.

But. . .no. . .they just have to chase me down and try to save my soul as being condemned because I bothered to become educated and actually read the books they condemn, sight unseen. Isn't that the definition of "intolerance" and "blind prejudice?" And aren't those considered to be un-Christian traits? Then they have those WWJD bracelets and bumper stickers. Well. . .I suspect that Jesus would tell them to be more tolerant and that being self-righteous, and that harming others in the process is not exactly what He intended.

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(NT) (NT) Ive been thinking -- You should write a book. :->

In reply to: Re: Amazing...! Yep, Dragon. . .

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying

In reply to: Re: I don't remember it being in the bible... **Wicca UPDAT

The Wiccan is the one getting her animals killed and maimed. It's the good Christain people in the community that are attacking her. They're probably afraid to kill her so they come at her through those she loves.

I know I would be out for blood if someone hurt my animals. I remember an incident that happened here. Some boys took this old man's small dog (I think the dog was 16) and doused it with gas and set it on fire. Here was a little dog that had never know anything but love and it's last moments on earth were filled with pain and horror. I was ready to do the same thing to the boys. I really haven't changed my opinion much. It still brings tears to my eyes.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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prison-bound, maybe

In reply to: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying

Its my belief that many kids -- grownups, too -- end up doing time or worse, if they are doing things like that.

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Re: it being in the bible... -- another OT/NT thing...

Hi, Dan.

Exodus 22:17 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Another one of those major philosophical differences between the law of fear in the Old Testament and the Law of Love in the New. And the Fundamentalists, of course, feel justified in their hatred because they haven't replaced the one with the other...

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Just once could you give it a rest!

In reply to: Re: it being in the bible... -- another OT/NT thing...

What 'fundamentalist' Christian would act in such a way? Answer: none! Christian Fundamentalism refers to a particular view of theology, and, sometimes, scripture. It may even embrace a list of do's and don'ts. It does NOT embrace hating your neighbor, or engaging in violence.

Also, the Old Testament is NOT based on fear. In fact, it is based on the same thing as the New Testament; faith. Do Abraham, Moses, Joseph, etc. strike you as men who lived in fear? Abraham and Moses were the friends of God and conversed with Him one on one. What we wouldn't give for that experience!

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Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

In reply to: Just once could you give it a rest!

Thanks KP! Everytime DK gives his opiniopn on what Fundamentalist's believe I cringeSad
DK you just have no clue at all on thisSad
Glenda

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Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

In reply to: Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

Glenda, you apparently don't hear the same Fundamentalists on the TV as I do down here in Texas. Folks who claim the earth is less than 6,000 years old because the Old Testament is "inerrant" and if you add up all the numbers in the various geneologies (assuming nothing was left out), that's what you get. Christ Himself contrasted "an eye for an eye" with "love your enemies," yet Fundamentalists support the death penalty based on Mosaic Law. For a Christian, most of the Old Testament should be merely a historical record of God's Covenant with His chosen people -- not a book of instructions on how to live. That's what the New Testament is, for a Christian. yet the Fundamentalists preach "hellfire and brimstone," based largely on the Old Testament. BTW, if the Old Testament is inerrant, why don't Fundamentalists keep kosher?

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

In reply to: Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

I am not going to argue religion with you Dave. IMO the Old Testament is telling of the coming of Christ!
The laws were for the Israelites, That was done away with when Christ shed his blood for us, We are no longer under the law! I can't help it if you choose to get your info on what a Fundamentalist believes from some wacko TV preacherSad There are too many groups that claim only there idea of how to practice Christianity is correct! That is why Christ in His wisdom said discern the truth thru prayer. Mostly there is not much argument with these groups if you stick to the Bible in discussions it is when the want to bring their Church dogma into it.
Glenda

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In DK's defense, Glenda. . .

In reply to: Re: Just once could you give it a rest!

He's right that there are a bunch of creationist groups around that fully denounce any form of evolution. You may consider some of their teachings to be whacko, but there are a whole lot of folks who claim to be equally Christian (or more so in their opinion), and they feel that you must take everything literally. There is no such thing as a parable, and every word (mistranslated or not) is the immutable word of God in either Testament.

My daughter learned in her Christian school science class (respectable, pretty normal, non-denominational Christian school that was also supposed to have taught evolution along with creation), that the reason that "all dinosaurs" are now found with their arms flailed out to the side, and on their backs, was because they were all swimming (yes, all at once, regardless of their age or era), next to Noah's Ark, trying to backstroke to wait to get on board. The reason we don't have any more dinosaurs is because none of them managed to hop a ride.

Oh, and there are demons on a planet identical to Earth on the far side of the galaxy, and they come take over humans' bodies to lead people astray- the work of the Devil. And if an asteroid is heading towards Earth, just go stand on the base of one of the mountains in Israel, since God is going to put his foot there, and you will be saved.

These are wonderfully nice folks that said this, and they truly believe what they said. They also believe themselves to be Christian to the core, and in fact teach the Bible as well as Science. So it doesn't need to be off of television, to see that people differ vastly on this stuff and each person feels themselves to be "right." And all cite the Bible and both Testaments, to "prove" their contentions.

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Re: In DK's defense, Glenda. . .

In reply to: In DK's defense, Glenda. . .

I think if I were you I would check out that school a bit betterSad We also had our kids in a Christian School and when we found out exactly what they taught our kids were outta there fast!
All I am trying to say to DK is that with out first hand knowledge about what most of us believe he shouldn't lump us all together as a bunch of wackos!
I also watch some of those TV preachers and they turn my stomach! Remember Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker? Just goes to show that just because they use the name doesn't make it so.
Glenda

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PS Diane.....

In reply to: Re: In DK's defense, Glenda. . .

I also do not believe in evolution. It is merely a theory by a man! I believe God created all things.
The thing is I don't know everything that God knowsWink And maybe One of his days is as 10,000 years to us!
Those are all questions I will ask when I get to the other side. For now I choose to believe the WordHappy
Glenda

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Re: PS Diane.....

In reply to: PS Diane.....

Is it possible that evolution is the method that god uses and that it took him 16 billion years to come up with us?

Dan

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Nope!

In reply to: Re: PS Diane.....

But you're welcome to believe that your Uncle was a monkey if you want tooHappy
Glenda

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Why not?

In reply to: Nope!

Were you joking or do you really have no understanding of the concepts you're discussing?

Dan

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(NT) (NT) Comphrehension problems again Dan???

In reply to: Why not?

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(NT) (NT) Never mind. **Sheesh!**

In reply to: (NT) Comphrehension problems again Dan???

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You wouldn't understand...oops, that's right....

In reply to: Why not?

...you're "SORRY"

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Thanks for joining in, Jack.

In reply to: You wouldn't understand...oops, that's right....

It's good to see you up and around. Don't worry, you'll be able to catch on to the flow of the conversation soon enough.

Good luck,

Dan

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Re: Nope!

In reply to: Nope!

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Re: Nope!

In reply to: Re: Nope!

Diana, where did I give the impression That I agreed with these people that killed this womans animals?
It most definitely was NOT a Christian act and I condemn them with all my heart!
Glenda

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