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'I am saddened that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign.' BY JOHN F. KERRY

Feb 7, 2004 8:35PM PST
"I am saddened that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign."

BY JOHN F. KERRY


(Editor's note: Sen. Kerry delivered this speech on the Senate floor Feb. 27, 1992. The previous day, Sen. Bob Kerrey, a Vietnam veteran and candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, spoke in Atlanta, where he criticized fellow candidate Bill Clinton for his lack of military service during Vietnam.)

Mr. President, I also rise today--and I want to say that I rise reluctantly, but I rise feeling driven by personal reasons of necessity--to express my very deep disappointment over yesterday's turn of events in the Democratic primary in Georgia.

I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this presidential campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning.

What is ignored is the way in which our experience during that period reflected in part a positive affirmation of American values and history, not simply the more obvious negatives of loss and confusion.

What is missing is a recognition that there exists today a generation that has come into its own with powerful lessons learned, with a voice that has been grounded in experiences both of those who went to Vietnam and those who did not.

What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country.

What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary....


Evie Happy

Discussion is locked

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Re: IMO, this should be a headline in every newspaper in the US
Feb 7, 2004 9:11PM PST

#What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country#

i think it is as true now as it was after the Civil War, 2 World Wars, Korea, Vietnam and now Afghanistan and Iraq.....

the self righteous who bleat "we told you so" at every opportunity should read it 1000 times a day...

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How do the US elections affect you, jonah?
Feb 7, 2004 9:22PM PST

You seem to have chosen sides and to have your preferences on one side. I may be wrong about that though. But I am curious, how do the elections here affect you there and what makes you choose one of the sides? You have all the rights in the world to h ave an opinion about it, but I am very curious in what way the elections would affect you...

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Re: You seem to have chosen sides and to have your preferences on one side. I may be wrong about that though.
Feb 7, 2004 10:06PM PST

you got at least one thing right charley....
you are wrong...

as opposed to you and others, i try to go along with 'innocent til proven guilty', and therefore i haven't hung a rope from the tallest tree....

i also haven't "taken a side", neither in this presidents term of office, nor in the next...

you see, i'm one of those etremely rare birds who doesn't look at the name tag on a stream before i drink, and i have not the faintest idea of what the difference is between a republican or a democrat (or if bush is one or the other)....so, when i happen to approve of and agree with something said by (in this particular instance) a senator (is he rep or dem btw?) i merely saw clean water and not only drank, but i reccomended the stream to others....

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You should know then ...
Feb 7, 2004 10:18PM PST

... that John F. Kerry is now the leading Democrat candidate for President, who is running "big time" on his Vietnam Vet status and anti-Iraq war position (although he voted for the resolution giving Bush the authority, then against the support package). Seems he has forgotten his own words for political expediency Sad

Evie Happy

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Re:You should know then ...
Feb 11, 2004 12:19AM PST

It seems that Kerry is running on his own record, as opposed to running against the other candidates' records. That's a significant difference.

His recent statements regarding bush's service record support this.

Dan

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He's not? He's using surrogates and coming mighty close himself.
Feb 11, 2004 1:32AM PST
Here's one thing he said:

'Late Tuesday night, Mr. Kerry fired back. On Fox News, he subtly slashed at Mr. Bush by implying that joining the National Guard was just another way of dodging the draft.

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard," Mr. Kerry said. "Those are choices people make."'

and...

'Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of Democratic National Committee, led the way on Sunday when he called Mr. Bush AWOL, a charge that Mr. Kerry has not made himself, but also not disavowed.'

and...

'But Mr. Kerry is showing no signs so far of backing off. In recent days, he has been assisted by former Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, a triple-amputee from his service in Vietnam who has been virtually sainted in Democratic eyes after being defeated in 2002 when Republicans questioned his patriotism.'

Sure sounds like he's running against Bush's record to me. His, otherwise, would not be noteworthy.
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Re:He's not? He's using surrogates and coming mighty close himself.
Feb 11, 2004 2:09AM PST

Enlisting in the National Guard was a common tactic at the time by people who thought it would keep them out of combat without having to leave the country or go to jail. I think the issue is not what Bush did, but rather how what he did jibes with the way he tries to portray himself.

...called Mr. Bush AWOL, a charge that Mr. Kerry has not made himself, but also not disavowed.

How could he disavow it? He doesn't have the facts to disavow it.

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I see you don't let the facts get in the way of your slander.
Feb 11, 2004 11:25AM PST

That's all too common since the late 60s.

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Re:Re:He's not? He's using surrogates and coming mighty close himself.
Feb 11, 2004 11:53AM PST

"Enlisting in the National Guard was a common tactic at the time by people who thought it would keep them out of combat without having to leave the country or go to jail. "

Maybe a lot did, but then people join when there isn't a war too. And even if they did, the National Guard only maintains a certain strenght, so it wasn't a wholesale escape. That might make questions of influence more important, but as noted elsewhere by several, there were lots of people playing that game.

And what is the difference when people got an Army draft notice and applied for and got into Navy or Air Force because they preferred that to being in Army or Marines? Lots of people didn't want to be foot soldier basic cannon fodder, during Vietnam war and otherwise.


roger

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Re:Re:Re:He's not? He's using surrogates and coming mighty close himself.
Feb 11, 2004 10:18PM PST

Hi Roger:

I was speaking specifically about the Vietnam war years. Joining the National Guard was seen by many draft-eligible young men as a way to fulfill their service to their country without having to fight a war they might not have wanted to fight. And yes, they were often mistaken if they saw the NG as a guarantee they wouldn't be shipped out.

Even though I was too young to serve, it felt to kids my age like that war would never end and I remember the conversations -- "What will you do if you get drafted?" "Canada.....National Guard....take the jail time...." all were discussed in the same breath.

I don't know what Bush's mindset was at the time (or Dan Quayle's).

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Of course, Josh..
Feb 11, 2004 10:28PM PST

Josh, of course Kerry doesn't want to have the subject discussed. If that happens, and it will eventually, his "boomerang medals" and things like the "Winter Soldier Investigation" will come into play and be all over the media.

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Re:National Guard vs fighting
Feb 11, 2004 10:36PM PST

"Joining the National Guard was seen by many draft-eligible young men as a way to fulfill their service to their country without having to fight a war they might not have wanted to fight."

Probably so. And I remember several that picked the Air Force for about the same reason. As non-pilots, just support staff, they might get assign to air bases in the reason, but not likely to be on the front line. And some felt their chances of avoiding death was better in the Navy during Vietnam. I had one older relative join the Air Force, and another planning to join the Navy if drafted. And I suspect they both were influenced by avoiding the foot soldier job in Vietnam, whether or not they opposed the war on moral grounds.

I'm not sure that with Vietnam that as protest mounted and was broadcast on the evening news that it didn't lead many to consider such ways to avoid the front line duty that wouldn't have thought about it otherwise. Even some who may not have been morally against the war probably weigh the odds of what was best for them personally.

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Let's give full credit...
Feb 11, 2004 10:50PM PST

Granted, there was a saying that the U.S. Air Force was unusual, as it was the service where the officers fought but the enlisted didn't. But that ignores a lot of things. Tanker "boomers" and Buff gunners come to mind, so let's give them full credit.

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Was not meant to discount anyone's service
Feb 11, 2004 10:58PM PST

And as you rightfully point out, there were crewmen other than pilots on aircraft into the combat zones.

I was thinking about an older relative who ended up as a staff sargent, pulled a year in Siagon at airbase headquarters. He did tell the tale of waking up one night during off duty time with nearby shelling going on. His account? he woke up to shells exploding, put his helment on, and crawled under his bunk in underwear and helment and stayed there till it was over.

His other tales of engagements within the city are not suitable for mixed company. They were of a different type of 'servicing'. Wink

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Re:National Guard vs fighting - part 2
Feb 11, 2004 10:37PM PST

Hmmm, moving from discussing if Kerry and/or his campaign is trying to cast Bush's National Guard service as equivalent to avoiding the draft to discussing why people chose service other than the Army draft.

I'll concede that many may have had the feeling ' "Canada.....National Guard....take the jail time...." all were discussed in the same breath.' That is, that all were equal options to avoid the front lines. Well, maybe, but doing National Guard even choosing jail instead of service doesn't seem quite the same as leaving the country.

By the time the amnesty for draft dodgers etc was put forth, it was probably best for the country and I personally don't have many real problems with it then, other than perhaps a bit of the fear of precedence in all such things. And that it was an insult to both those who volunteered to serve and those that didn't want to but followed the law and did. But the controversy was so huge it may have been necessary.

It was a hard time, and lots of no win choices for some. But I don't see trying to cast Bush's National Guard service as tantamount to draft dodging or accusing him of being AWOL from that service in definace of his honorable discharge on record as anything but mud slinging for political gain.


roger

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Strategy Backfired
Feb 12, 2004 1:51AM PST

Hi Roger.

This post struck close to home. In 1969 my draft number was 81. Since I was bored with home I decided if I had to serve I might as well choose the circumstances. I went to visit the Air Force recruiter for just the reasons you describe. His office was the last in a dead end hall. Just my luck - he was out to lunch. When I turned around to leave I found the hallway blocked by a HUGE Marine. He said - "We have airplanes too" and convinced me to sit with him and wait for the AF guy. 3 hours later I was a Marine recruit. - The next day I got my Draft Notice. I got lucky and spent all 4 years in the states. Would have gone over if selected.

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That recuiter must have been a good salesman.
Feb 12, 2004 2:33AM PST

I'm not sure of the rules, but I believe normally if you qualified you could join other branches of service within a specified period even after you got your draft notice back then.

I came close to joing the Air Force after Vietnam was already not an issue, in 74. Things started winding down there while I was still in high school, I graduated HS in '72.

I went by and talked to the recuiter to see what they might fit me in based on the old military apptitude tests all males had to take in school, as early as either 8 or 9 grade I believe, but it may have been as late as 10th.

I've wondered a few times if I made huge mistake finally deciding not to go. While realizing that recuiter promises of assignments don't always fall out that way, I was offered the radio and radar training after basic, and depending on that possible future electronic training. Interesting since I ended up in industrial electric/electronic control technical repair work. I might have done 20 in the air force, then came out and as a civilian been doing about the same I do now.

Oh well, just what if's, not complaints.

roger

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What a jerk Kerry was to say that.
Feb 11, 2004 3:02AM PST

Many, maybe most of those who joined the Guard were there to show they believed in defending our country, but many also felt that the war in Viet Nam was not the correct way to achieve that. For Kerry to broadbrush them as CO's and little more than deserters that hadn't the courage to run is atrocious. A lot of young men in the Guard wanted to be there for their country, but not necessarily be there for Viet Nam. I could just as easily postulate that Kerry didn't have their nerve to make that choice or that he was all gung ho about the Viet Nam war at the time. There are those who went into the regular forces and never say a day of combat in Viet Nam, while their counterparts in the Guard were out quelling campus and race riots here back home. Kerry needs to stick it someplace and shut up that type of talk.

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He said something.
Feb 11, 2004 4:45AM PST

He certainly didn't say what you're reading into his statement.

Dan

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Re:He said something.
Feb 11, 2004 9:36AM PST

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard," Mr. Kerry said. "Those are choices people make."

Well, while willing to give him the benefit of doubt of making a mistake in his statement, by naming them all together, he certainly gives the impression that he considers them very similair.

That can be judged to mean he had no problems with any of them at any time. But in the context of charges of Bush being slandered as being AWOL, even by some in his supporters, it can also be seen as a slur on all of them with future deniability built in.

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That's not the way I read it
Feb 11, 2004 12:53AM PST
...during this presidential campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning.

Sounds to me like he wasn't complaining that Vietnam was being brought up, but rather that he was unhappy with the way in which it was being used in the campaign. I interpreted this statement to mean that he thought more discussion, not less, was called for.

What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country.

Amen to that.
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Very well said! Excellent as a matter of fact. Thanks, Josh. -nt
Feb 11, 2004 10:04AM PST

.