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I am puzzled by the questions around Kerry's military servic

by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 5:27 AM PDT

e.

As one who thankfully didn't get caught in the meat grinder of Viet Nam (moderately serious health problems), but who was in university at the time and therefore close enough to have observed some of its workings, especially with regard to the National Guard, I have questions. The National Guard was widely regarded at the time as an escape from dangerous service, as was service in the Coast Guard. The National Guard was also widely regarded as a rich boy's Country Club, those who got in were well connected or damned lucky, and were constantly kidded as such. Both of these opinions were widely held by the US population in general and most especially among the University Student population. These are facts which anyone who lived through that era should be honest enough to acknowledge.

Kerry on the other hand volunteered, can we agree on that?

I do have questions, however, about how one is nominated for awards like the Silver Star and the Purple Heart. It seems impossible to me that one puts one's self forward for them. Surely it's the commanding officer, acting perhaps on a submission from the individual, or his superior in the field, with corroboration from other individuals present at the time, or from some recognized medical authority (even if only a corpsman), who is responsible for forwarding a recommendation to a board who adjudicate the claim. Given the bureaucratic nature of the military it seems impossible to me that, as so many seem to be saying here and elsewhere, Kerry awarded himself the medals and discharged himself at his own convenience. It doesn't make sense. Now, as I understand it, if one receives from that independent board three Purple Hearts for wounds received in combat one can be assigned to non-combat duties. This all looks kosher to me. Subsequent release I can not speak about; maybe there are reasons and procedures that are legitimate but I don't know about them, and we're certainly not hearing (Seeing) anything through the current smoke and mirrors of the election.

And given Bush's vicious attacks, first on John McCain for his patriotism given his well publicized vacation in Hanoi (there's a guy who can wear the moniker Hanoi John with pride and respect) and then on the Max Cleland calling into question his service in Viet Nam, I find any attacks from the Bush camp on matters of patriotism or military service to be not merely suspect, but as disinformation not worthy of examination.

I'd really like to hear someone speak to these issues without foaming at the mouth, and regurgitating RNC twaddle. Anyone care to explain the issues without resorting to the Swift Boat Vets as unimpeachable sources?

Yours temperately
Rob Boyter

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Same old maneuver
by David Evans / October 30, 2004 5:36 AM PDT

Avoid the question, change the subject, divert attention, hope nobody notices. Once again:

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=43042&messageID=504959

A question for the leftists, especially the ones who bleated and demanded that President Bush release ALL of his military records. Which he did, of course.

Q: Why do you not demand the same of Hanoi John, especially seeing as how he has promised that he would release all of them but has not?


DE

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Thanks for your intemperate and unenlightening response
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 5:45 AM PDT
In reply to: Same old maneuver

Your post addressed none of my questions and was one which I had read before.

Can anyone treat this half-way dispassionately and explain the processes involved so that an intelligent person can understand how you might be correct. (I already know most of you are Hard Right.)

Rob Boyter

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Re: Thanks for your intemperate and unenlightening response
by Glenda / October 30, 2004 5:48 AM PDT

Ed has explained on numerous occasions as has J Vega the way these medals are awarded. Of course it would be too easy to just go read them.
Glenda

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Daves post was just a repost of his previous rant.
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 5:54 AM PDT

I will gladly read with a cautious eye any info regarding the awarding of medals generally and how Kerry's differred from the norm.

Rob

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Try doing a search
by TONI H / October 30, 2004 6:05 AM PDT
http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/forums/

All the information you request is included in numerous threads and posts here over the last three or four months.......and it will more than answer your questions, quite rationally and very detailed, about the process of not only how he didn't exactly qualify for that third Purple Heart in particular, how he used an option available for 3rd-Purple-Heart-and-you're outta-there to leave Vietnam after four and a half months, how he put in for that Purple Heart and another medal himself, how his normal discharge was held up for over six years while it was being 'looked over', how he aided and abetted the enemy in meetings while still a Naval Officer wherein assassinations of military figures were being discussed (basically condoning those talks and should have been held accountable under treason laws), and on and on and on.

Have fun doing your research a little late in the game, but you still have a couple of days to get enriched.....if you don't end up puking all over the keyboard thinking about this joke possibly becoming your 'leader' and Commander in Chief.

TONI
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Re: Try doing a search
by tom04 / October 31, 2004 2:54 PM PST
In reply to: Try doing a search

Toni
Ditto, I applaud your response. Good job!

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You're quite welcome, you deserved it
by David Evans / October 30, 2004 5:56 AM PDT

after your evasive non-answer to my question and this transparent attempt to change the subject away from a question none of the left have the backbone to even attempt to answer. Not a single one, lol.

The thimble is empty.

DE

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Dave, either you misunderstand me or I misunderstand you
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 6:14 AM PDT

I really will happily read anything about the awarding of medals in general and the discrepancies in Kerry's awards. I am not trying to be contentious about this I am asking for accurate and relatively unbiased information so that I can evaluate what has been said.

I have two kinds of posts, as I had hoped you had discerned. Serious ones asking for information and partisan ones generated mostly by the very one-sided debate here. Oh and irrisistable Jokes.

And I thought a Moderator was intended to moderate discussion, i.e. tone down excess rhetoric, protect the weak, you know, Lone Ranger stuff. Otherwise they'd be called Ranterators.

Glenda says you have posted info that I should see regarding the Medals thing and John Kerry's discharge. While I regret that your above post did not fill the bill, anything else you can provide will be gratefully and appreciatively received.

Yours in moderation

Rob Boyter

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"You deserved it"
by Josh K / October 30, 2004 6:18 AM PDT

Yeah, serves you right for asking legitimate questions in a calm, rational manner and expecting anything other than "RNC twaddle" and "RTFM!" types of replies.

3 more days, Rob....

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Re: "You deserved it"
by Mark5019 / October 30, 2004 6:22 AM PDT
In reply to: "You deserved it"

and josh when has kerry answered any or better yet why didnt he release his records less than honorable discharge but then you wouldnt care would you since all you do is change the subject.

why doesnt it supprise me when i posted a link that toni fixed you and your ilk still cant answer?

just as usuall yell fire and when bush puts it out you run away with burnt fingers thank god 4 more yrs then where you gonna go?

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Re: "You deserved it"
by Josh K / October 31, 2004 10:08 PM PST
In reply to: Re: "You deserved it"

The man asked some simple questions and asked them in a calm, level-headed manner. The responses speak for themselves IMO.

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Re: "You deserved it"
by C1ay / October 31, 2004 11:06 PM PST
In reply to: Re: "You deserved it"

Calm, level-headed question Josh. Should Kerry sign form SF180 to release all of his military records?

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Possibly a better question, Clay...
by J. Vega / October 31, 2004 11:27 PM PST
In reply to: Re: "You deserved it"

Possibly a better question, Clay: If Kerry wins and he becomes the President, how can he NOT then sign that form and let the people finally see ALL of the military records of their President?
If Kerry wins, I would expect the call for him to release ALL of his records would not go away, but become even stronger.
Oh, well, we shall see what happens.

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Re: "You deserved it"
by Josh K / October 31, 2004 11:50 PM PST
In reply to: Re: "You deserved it"

Yes, I think he should, if for no other reason than to put all this stuff to bed.

But my posts were commenting on the civil tone of the initial questions, and the less-than-civil replies he got.

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Clay
by MarciaB / November 1, 2004 12:47 AM PST
In reply to: Re: "You deserved it"

FWIW, I agree with you. Since Kerry decided some time ago to run his campaign on his military service, he should have been willing to provide ALL of his records.

He didn't do that (obviously).

Why didn't he? Only he and his closest cohorts know that for sure - and, maybe, only he knows.

We (those who do not support Kerry as President) keep asking those here at SE who support Kerry "Why doesn't he supply all of his records?", "Why don't you insist/demand he supply all of his records?".

My question is..........Even if every single Kerry supporter on this forum said they, too, wanted to see those records; and they, too, wanted to know why he had not released them .......... What difference would that make?

Would Kerry release his records because ALL SE members demanded it? No.

Would Kerry supporters change their minds about who they supported NO MATTER WHAT those records might reveal? Probably not.

If what those records revealed would likely sway them one way or the other, they would ALL be demanding to see them. The fact that they are not, leads me to believe that it wouldn't make any difference.

The dead horse has been beaten until it's no longer recognizable. The Kerry supporters on SE DO NOT CARE what those non-public records may say. They would vote for him even if he were tried and convicted of treason.


JMHO


.

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I noticed you didn't try to answer either
by David Evans / October 30, 2004 6:44 AM PDT
In reply to: "You deserved it"

Weren't you one of the ones who demanded to see all of President Bush's military record, with much self-righteous indignation? Yes you were.

Why is it that nobody on the left can respond to this?

A question for the leftists, especially the ones who bleated and demanded that President Bush release ALL of his military records. Which he did, of course.

Q: Why do you not demand the same of Hanoi John, especially seeing as how he has promised that he would release all of them but has not?


The question is not difficult. But apparently answering it is, lol!~

The thimble is still empty.

DE

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(NT) (NT) david they cant answer it kerry refuses to relese recor
by Mark5019 / October 30, 2004 7:13 AM PDT
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It must really embarrass them
by David Evans / October 30, 2004 7:20 AM PDT

They sure will do anything to avoid answering, won't they? Changing the subject, anything..... Anything but an answer, lol.

Not a single one of them even attempted to answer that very simple question. Wonder why?

They're caught red handed and can't do a damn thing about it. Totally speechless. That picture of Dorian Gray is out for public viewing now.

The thimble is empty.

DE

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No, I asked a civil question and you vomitted RNC bile.
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 7:36 AM PDT

And the fact that I have followed and posted to this forum for about a month now doesn't mean I have an encyclopedic knowledge of Right Wing Rants. Generally they turn me off which is why I may not have noticed a post 6 weeks or 6 months ago from someone I have come to regard as a suspect source.

You deserve it.

Rob Boyter

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Re: No, I asked a civil question and you vomitted RNC bile.
by Glenda / October 30, 2004 10:29 AM PDT

Why even bother to ask your question? RNC BILE?? Sounds to me like you're mind is already made up and closed!
Go ahead and vote for Kerry!
Glenda

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Great Advice!!!
by Blake Cook / October 30, 2004 6:53 PM PDT
Sounds to me like you're mind is already made up and closed! Go ahead and vote for Kerry! - Glenda

So by this statement, are we to believe that you haven't made up your mind on who to vote for yet and your mind is open???

My mind is open and I can see that our country can't stand four more years of the same old crap. So I will take your advice and vote for Kerry. I hope many others will follow your great advice as well because it was unusually good for a change. Thanks for your enlightened suggestion...


Happy
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Nope voted by mail 2 weeks ago!
by Glenda / October 30, 2004 11:28 PM PDT
In reply to: Great Advice!!!

Bush 4 More years!

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I hope you won't be too disappointed...
by Blake Cook / October 31, 2004 2:35 AM PST

GW is heading back to Crawford where he belongs. President Kerry is going to make a great President. Admittedly, anyone would look great in comparison to GW though. Even if Kerry turns out to be a mediocre CIC, the world will be a much better place for most, except of course for GW's apologists...


Happy

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Re: I hope you won't be too disappointed...
by Glenda / October 31, 2004 3:03 AM PST

I won't but I am sure you will be:) BTW I made an error responding to you at all, I apologize for that moment of weakness on my part! You will be on the DNR list too since you are once again back in SE. Bye now
Glenda

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Abiding By Our Promises...
by Blake Cook / October 31, 2004 4:28 AM PST
BTW I made an error responding to you at all, I apologize for that moment of weakness on my part! You will be on the DNR list too since you are once again back in SE. - Glenda

You've made similar claims many times in the past and you've always broken your promises. So I won't be surprised when you fail to follow your promise again in the future...

I won't make the same claim as you just did once again, because I'm sure you will add more posts that will require replies. I won't stand idly by when people make wild and invalid claims that can be used to hurt or fool other less inquisitive or informed members...

It will make life a lot easier if I'm not distracted by hateful and taunting remarks though. I hope you can live up to your promise this time...


Happy
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(NT) (NT) X
by netsky / October 31, 2004 8:17 AM PST
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(NT) (NT) Windows won't close :( --->Cold Booting now.
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / October 31, 2004 9:11 AM PST
In reply to: (NT) X
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Re: I am puzzled by the questions around Kerry's military se
by Steven Haninger / October 30, 2004 5:44 AM PDT

I can only say that, in any public comment by Bush himself (that I have heard), he has shown respect for John Kerry's military service. You might suggest, but I doubt you can verify it, that GWB acts in the background to support remarks to the contrary.

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The buck has to stop somewhere, but never on Bush's desk
by Ziks511 / October 30, 2004 6:20 AM PDT

so far as I can see. And both sides use catspaws and surrogates. I don't much like the Democrats 527 ads any more than I like the Repubs. But you gotta admit the track record for your beloved leader with regard to slagging off his opponents early in the campaigns is pretty impressive.

(Slag off: n. to denigrate, defame, or otherwise speak ill of an opponent: Essex English)

Rob Boyter

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Re: The buck has to stop somewhere, but never on Bush's desk
by Mark5019 / October 30, 2004 6:24 AM PDT

and wheres kerrys release oh thats right he refused to do that hmmm cowards whay out but thats kerry yellow all ways

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