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General discussion

How do I maximize security for XP even after support ends?

Sep 6, 2013 9:45AM PDT
Question:

How do I maximize security for XP even after support ends?


I would like very level heads to answer this request for me, please: How can I maximize security for XP when Microsoft stops supporting it in April 2014? That is a search term. Can someone help me with some answers. My system is Dell Dimension 3000 with XP, SP 3. I use MSE for security and also OnlineArmor Firewall with HIPS (free edition). I use MBAM as a second opinion as well as Hitman Pro, SuperAntiSpyware Free Edition. I am totally disabled and have used XP very comfortably, but I have no wish to buy more expensive hardware and software, thanks! Please try to answer within these terms: suggest ways to make XP very secure for along time. Many Thanks!

-- Submitted by: Robb T.

Discussion is locked

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Buying new is no solution
Sep 22, 2013 6:25PM PDT

Dear Drake,

Buying new is a rich man's solution,
every new PC gets clogged again, that is the art of Windows.
If you reinstall your windows it runs just as fast as a new one.

So reinstall and make a backup of the total drive.
As soon as windows slows down, even after 6 months.
You put the backup back and it is fresh again, provided you have your work on a safe partition,
and it takes only 15 minutes of your time.

Cheers, C

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Learn to be proactive
Sep 6, 2013 8:44PM PDT

Get online, learn the tweaks and hacks and apply them! Close the holes Microsoft can't be bothered with by hitting up the user community and making a fair assessment of what will work for you and what you don't think will help much for what you use your system for. Most of the issues with XP are addressed. XP is like a Honda Civic, not much to worry about once you fix the headlight issues ie. managing the registry cracks and keeping system restore turned the f**k off because that prevents your security programs from effectively destroying malware/etc!... and you may even want to keep automatic updates turned off too so that microsoft doesn't infect your system with crap like genuine advantage, or any of their other forceware crap that slows the f**k out of your OS response time... and thats easy enough once you make the effort! Have fun kicking it!

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A few random thoughts...
Sep 6, 2013 9:56PM PDT

Hi Robb,
unfortunately, after M$ support for XP goes away, you will be at more risk - not because you are still running XP but because of the vast number of other people who still will, making it still a target for the ne'er do wells. Currently, about 34% of Windows machines are running XP, expecting all or even a large majority of them to have migrated by April is cloud cuckoo land!

The problem is that when M$ issue patches for their later systems, in the technical background they make available for IT support folks, they explain the details of the vulnerability and that can be used by the baddies to reverse engineer the vulnerability on XP.

That said, as others have noted, you do have a pretty solid protection collection in place, though how long MSE updates will be compatible with XP is an open question, particularly in the light of their re-engineering it as Windows Defender for Windows 8. You might need to look at Building your own equivalent from the likes of Comodo, ZoneAlarm, AVG or Avast, all of which have free versions, just not an integrated system like MSE, though they do have Internet Suites for a fee.

One thing you don't mention is how you connect to the internet. If you just use a broadband or cable modem without a router, you should seriously consider putting a router between the modem and your PC, even if you only have one PC. The reason being that almost all routers have internal hardware firewalls, which would be a useful addition to your protection armoury, along with the router's own security measures. There are straight hardware firewall appliances but they are usually intended for commercial use and therefore expensive. Routers are much cheaper. And remember, wired connections are always more secure than wireless!

As for the longer term, your hardware is likely the weaker spot than your software - it will break eventually (that said I still have my first ever home build, 17 years old that still works!). One problem with Dell's is that some of the older machines used proprietary interfaces and finding replacement parts is extremely difficult and have you tried to buy an IDE hard disk lately? Here in Australia, they are just about extinct.

For longer term software, if you don't want to spend money, then your options are really just Linux. Those who have made the switch say they adapted very quickly but it isn't Windows and there is a learning curve. And don't kid yourself that it doesn't need anti-malware programs, it is much harder to hack and the low penetration doesn't make it a very worthwhile target for malware but with its increasing use commercially, that will change.

Hope this helps, good luck!

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modem router?
Sep 20, 2013 5:28PM PDT

Hi very good suggestions, but I do not understand the difference between a modem and a router? I thought they were one and the same thing?

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OK, let's try to explain.
Sep 20, 2013 7:26PM PDT

Modems and routers are all part of the connection between your PC and your Internet Service Provider (ISP). Sometimes they are separate boxes, sometimes combined into a Modem/Router.

The modem id the piece that connects to your ISP. The name originates from early days, when connection to a network was via a dial-up telephone line. Such lines were always analogue (like voice signals) and computers, as you know, are digital. The modem was the box that converted the incoming signal from analogue to digital and the outgoing signal from digital to analogue. The name is a shortened form of "MOdulator/DEModulator", which is the electrical conversion process. The name stuck into the digital age.

In today's digital world, the modem acts as an interface between the incoming digital signal and your internal network. For a regular copper wire telephone line, a Digital Subscriber Line (DSL) or Asynchronous Digital Subscriber Line (ADSL) the incoming signal is digital and there is very little work to do, other than provide the interface to the computer. On a newer fibre optic line, the modem converts the incoming optical signal to an electrical signal and vice versa. On a Cable connection, the modem converts the cable provider's signal protocol into one the computer understands.

Now, you can plug your computer directly into the modem and you will be connected to the external network. This is fine if you have one computer and it is located next to the modem.

But if you have more than one computer or it isn't where your telephone or cable connection comes into your house, you can install a router between your modem and your computer(s). The purpose of the router is to take the incoming signals, work out from the signal headers which computer it is for and "route" it along the appropriate pathway to the right computer. For outgoing signals, it tags which computer the signal came from, so it can send the response to the right computer and sends all the signals to the same external address. So you can view a router like a branch line switch point on a railway track that directs the trains to the appropriate destinations. The connection from the router to the computers can either be through an Ethernet cable or through a WiFi connection, the cable is more secure and faster but less convenient.

For DSL and ADSL (telephone line) connections, the modem and router are often combined in a single box (not so for cable internet because cable protocols differ) and then you get a modem/router.

As I said, most routers include a hardware firewall which helps protect your network from the bad guys and it is generally a cheap way of getting this extra hardware protection.

Hopefully this brief description helps.

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re modems V routers query
Sep 20, 2013 10:45PM PDT

Thank you , that was very clear, even I can understand that explanation.So detailed info ,much appreciated. Cheers, Bukti.

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Search
Sep 26, 2013 3:05PM PDT

Google, difference between modem and router
And make sure you know reputable websites.

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Re: How do I maximize security for XP after support ends?
Sep 7, 2013 1:32AM PDT

Robb,
I wouldn't worry too much about that. As long as you have a good anti-virus and anti-malware, you'll be ok. My preferences are Avast! for anti-virus and Malwarebytes' Anti-Malware. Both are free products and work very well. I would also use a good cleaner to run once a month or so (this goes for any version of Windows). I prefer CCleaner. It will clean up browser cache, cookies and all kinds of other stuff. This has the added effect of keeping your computer running at peak efficiency.

I hope this helps! Happy

Doug

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I believe the only way to keep XP secure
Sep 7, 2013 5:27AM PDT

after support ends would be to not go on the internet with it. Others are saying to use Linux but, I don't see how that makes using XP safer...Digger

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re: I believe the only way to keep XP secure
Sep 7, 2013 6:46AM PDT

Sorry, I can't agree. Today's anti-malware and anti-virus, in particular, blocks malicious web sites real time. That said, it would be highly recommended to be behind a router, however. Hardware firewalls are always superior to software firewalls (Windows firewall in particular).

Doug

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Probably True
Sep 7, 2013 6:50AM PDT

But sooner or later it won't just be MS that doesn't support XP and than you'll be left on your own

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Legacy system
Sep 20, 2013 5:10PM PDT

XP will be safe - offline, indeed, as a legacy system on old hardware (e.g., an affordable, second-hand laptop as mentioned in another comment).

Using Puppy Linux (burnt to CD) alongside Windows as ad-hoc OS to go online is eminently safe since it deploys in RAM only. This could be a reasonably convenient option whilst exercising the usual precautions with downloads to HD.

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I Feel Your Pain...
Sep 7, 2013 8:01AM PDT

A lot of us are still using XP for various reasons: We don't like Win 8, why pay for an OS when we have one that works and came with the computer, etc.

The short answer, looking at what you want is: No, you can't. Especially the part about "..very secure for along (sic) time".

Every time a new vulnerabilty pops up, Miocrosoft has to scamble to provide patches for all of their systems as quickly as possible. If these stop, you can be very exposed. Software made for XP may stop at some point even from other vendors. We very rarely see software advertised that will run on Windows ME or Windows 98 or even Windows NT anymore. There is still software that could run on Windows 2000, but that is dropping fast.

Although I tend to avoid "free" editions (I still believe in: "you get what you pay for"), you seem to have very good software loaded on your current system. However, I have seen the effects caused by "zero-day" vulnerabities. A small bit of malware that knocked out 100,000 computers in 20 minutes where even the A/V companies didn't know what it was. I feel for your situation. I am on XP myself but I feel that I will probably get a new computer with Windows 7 before the April deadline.

Here is what I would do:

1) Get an external hardware (i.e., expensive) firewall. Keep it very locked-down. I know money seems to be an issue so make sure you have the best firewall you can afford (even if software) and keep it locked down beyond the point of it being a nuisance. The more obnoxious, the better.

2) Avoid online banking or keeping financial information on the computer. However, I don't trust public clouds with this type of info as they all claim to read your stuff. If you do this, make sure you clear your browser's cache, history, etc. after use. Even though your bank may have a "guarantee" that you won't lose money using their site, you still could be subject to identity theft and that takes years and a lot of money to clear up.

3) Plan what software you will need for the time you will be on XP. There may be only versions for newer OS systems out there at some point. So, if you are thinking of using some application in the future, you may need to buy it closer to now rather than later. Also, plan your hardware. If you are planning for a new printer or something that you will buy in the future, be aware that they may not have XP drivers. So, plan accordingly.

4) Browser, XP is limited to, I think, Internet Explorer 8. Maybe 9 but certainly not 10. (OK, I forgot). What happens when websites won't work on old browsers? Yes, there will always be Firefox, chrome, etc. but for how long will these work on XP?

Figure out the true cost of staying on XP with all of the security stuff you are hoping to add and then look at the price for Win 7 or 8 (may not be as expensive as you think). As long as you can get the Dell drivers for your hardware (or Microsoft drivers) off the web, it may be a good move.

I have a Dell Dimension E510 but I suspect that, as long as I have employment, I will eventually get something new. I will just have to plan for it.

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Easiest, cheapest solution
Sep 8, 2013 1:52AM PDT

The easiest, cheapest solution is to buy an up-grade disk for Windows 7 and do the upgrade. That's it. And Win7 will continue to be supported for a good while to come. Make sure your computer can run 2GB of RAM memory.

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Preserve your XP compatible applications! (make backups)
Sep 8, 2013 6:06AM PDT

Here's something I figured out the hard way:
With the any applications you use (including browsers, anti-virus, firewall, etc.) keep in mind that newer versions might not be compatible with XP. Even they're compatible, at the very least you might just hate the new version and be unable to restore the older version if it's no longer available. Note: If you have "auto-updates" enabled, you might inadvertently get "auto-upgraded" as well. The upgrade might not be compatible with XP, and the auto-upgrade may uninstall/delete your old version w/o asking you.

As an example, I'd been using Firefox 3.6 as my browser quite some time and was pretty happy with it. I'm using Winows7, but I still liked my "old" Firefox and never bothered to upgrade to the new Firefox 10. Then one day I booted up Firefox 3.6, and it had suddenly been auto-upgraded to Firefox 10, and FF 3.6 had been automatically deleted from my system! I knew I had enabled auto-updates for FF, but I never realized I'd get upgraded to a completely new version without being asked first. And I certainly never thought my old version would get automatically deleted. I still gave FF10 a try, but was pretty disappointed with it because some of my favorite features were gone. (This was actually a common complaint about FF10).

Luckily, at that time I could still download Firefox 3.6 from Mozilla. But there was a notice saying that it would be discontinued soon and no longer available for download. Happily, I was able to download/restore my "old" Firefox. But just in case, I "sequestered" my Firefox 3.6 to prevent over-writing with FF10. Nothing fancy - all I did was put my FF 3.6 application (and associated files) into it's own folder with a new name. I also left Firefox 10 installed, even though I don't use it, and any updates that might "accidentally" get through and mess with FF3.6 are targeted to the FF10 folder instead. I also backed up FF3.6 onto a hardcopy in case my efforts to sequester FF3.6 somehow fail. Happy

For things like AV software, internet browsers, etc., where you'd obviously want auto-updates for security reasons, I'd STRONGLY recommend you make backup/restore copies of these applications. That way, if your XP-compatible software gets inadvertently auto-upgraded and overwritten by an incompatible version, you can always reinstall the old version.

Still, many of your other applications might eventually lose support as well (including security updates). At that point you might have no other option than to go to Windows 7, or even Windows 8 (omg!).

On the other hand, newer versions of malware/viruses/spyware might lose XP compatibility as well. Ironically, then you'd be more secure than the rest of us using Win7, Win8, Mac, etc. Happy

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Bad Idea!
Sep 26, 2013 11:19PM PDT

You really don't want to be running an out of date browser. Take everything everyone is saying about an out of date OS and double it.

I too get annoyed when Mozilla changes the look and feel of things. Eventually I either figure out that the new way of doing things is actually better, or I find out how to change the settings to make it the way I'm used to. Once you do that, the settings are usually preserved upon update.

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Windows XP Security
Sep 11, 2013 7:04PM PDT

From your description, it sounds like you are doing a pretty good job of protecting your computer right now and the April 2014 date is not going to really have much of an impact on you for awhile. The main issue is not what Microsoft does or does not do but rather what everyone else does. The key is going to be how long do all the developers of security software and browsers going to continue supporting Windows XP. At some point, your problem may end up being that you cannot find a firewall or antivirus software that is still compatible with Windows XP. But I think you are going to have a few more good years before you will need to face that problem.
Whether it be now or after April of 2014, here are a few suggestions for securing your computer. Most of which apply to any version of Windows as well as Mac and not just Windows XP:

ROUTER - The first line of defense is your Router. Installing a good firewall router or security appliance can be your best investment in the fight against viruses and other attacks. Those of you who are connected directly to your Internet Modem should, at the very least, install a regular router between the modem and your computer.

SECURITY SOFTWARE - Have a good antivirus/anstispyware software installed as well as a good software firewall is extremely important. You could install an all-in-one product that contains both from Norton, McAfee, Kaspersky or Trend Micro. You could also choose to install separate products. If you are looking at the Free products, AVG or Avast is great for the Antivirus software and Comodo is a good Free firewall, but there are many others too.

SECONDARY SCANNERS - No single real-time security product can stop all attacks and you cannot install more than one at a time. However, you can have additional on-demand scanners that you occasionally run to get a second opinion. At this time, I personally recommend installing and running manual scans weekly or monthly (depending on your computer and Internet usage) with each of the following:

Malwarebytes
Roguekiller
Hitman Pro


INTERNET BROWSER - Unfortunately, Microsoft has decided not to keep up with updating Internet Explorer for Windows XP and this is probably one of the weakest links in Windows XP. I would highly recommend that you STOP using Internet Explorer 8 NOW and start using one of the many other browsers such as Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox.

SEARCH ENGINES - Another way to help protect yourself from stumbling onto an infected Website is to use a search checker such as McAfee Site Advisor or AVG Secure Search that will automatically alert you before visiting dangerous webpages.

ADOBE FLASH AND JAVA - Flash player and Java are often required for some websites and activities, but they are both known as a weakness when it comes to security. If the things that you do on a regular basis do not require one or both of these, I would recommend uninstalling them. The easiest way to determine this is to remove them and try it. If you get somewhere that requires either of these, you will be notified and you can easily reinstall them.

USER ACCOUNTS - Another good way to help protect your computer is to stop using an Administrator account for everyday computing. Setup a second account that does not have administrative privileges to use on a regular basis and only use the Administrator account for installing software, updates and other activities that require administrative rights.

DNS SETTINGS - If you have no need to go to somewhat sketchy websites such as those that contain pornographic material, then I would highly recommend changing your DNS settings on your computer or better still your router. Changing the DNS settings on the router can protect your entire family or any device using your Internet connection (great for protecting your children from X rated material). And since the majority of infections come from these types of websites as well as bad links to such websites, using a service such as the Free OpenDNS Home or OpenDNS FamilySheild from OpenDNS.com can go a long way toward protecting all of your devices in your home. And with their $20 per year paid services, you can add a number of parental controls too. There are many other DNS servers that claim to protect you from infected sites such as Norton's ConectSafe and GreenTeamDNS, however I have not had the opportunity to try any of them as yet.

SANDBOXING - For those of you that spend a huge amount of time on the Internet and typically find yourself searching all kinds of topics and maybe even have been infected in the past, you might want to consider Sandboxing. This basically allows you to run programs such as your web browser in a virtual environment, thus protecting your computer from infections. Check out Sandboxie.com for more details. Some security products such as Comodo Internet Security have the option to run your browser in a Sandbox.

Other that the above suggestions, using common sense when surfing and reading mail is typically one of the most important security measures you can practice. As well as things like avoiding clicking on links within emails and suspicious websites and being careful about what you download and install on your computer. Always take the time to read before clicking on YES and examine check boxes that are pre-checked before clicking on NEXT or CONTINUE.

With any luck, you will receive several more years of reliable computing out of your Windows XP computer.

Dana
Wayland Computer

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Additions to above
Sep 20, 2013 8:17PM PDT

While re-reading my post, I noticed that I forgot one major point:

UPDATES - It is important to always keep up with all updates that are available for your other software and utilities. Many updates contain patches to known security problems so even when Microsoft pulls the plug on Windows XP support, you still want to update things like Java, Flash, Acrobat, Microsoft Office, Firefox, Google Chrome, security programs and any other software that you may use.

Dana
Wayland Computer

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Windows xp
Sep 20, 2013 9:27PM PDT

Windows XP will basically be turned off as of April 2014. Retired from Microsoft and still have online meetings I found that Windows XP will no longer have anything. You may not even be able to get online because security updates require a logical port and that will be turned off, actually they are already being turned off. Anti virus programs will not function correctly if not at all. I have an old lap top with XP and the port has already been turned off so I can only use the machine for spreadsheets and offline usage. I would invest in a new machine so as not to get stuck. This isn't Microsofts fault, it's technology.

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What a lot of hogwash
Sep 21, 2013 1:30AM PDT

Don't write about things You know nothing about, somebody gullible might believe You.

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Turned off?????
Sep 21, 2013 11:28PM PDT

I repair alot of XP computers and they are NOT "turned off". Where did you get this tripe from? Retired from Microsoft? I see why they retired you-- or fired you, if that's even the truth.

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Full Protection
Sep 22, 2013 3:19AM PDT

This is a comprehensive reply for the best protection against a virus invasion. My previous reply on how I deal with a virus did not cover the router that I also use. I consider that a router is a very important front line of defense even if there is only one computer involved.

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WXP Security?
Sep 20, 2013 12:18PM PDT

Use a stable and powerful anti virus/malware/anti spyware software program, and stay off the internet as much as you can.
I have XP installed on a separate hard drive on my computer, which I normally run Windows 7 on. I only keep XP to run a few old programs, and hardly ever go online with it, especially to check my email. But I have anti virus running all the time, and only go to trusted sites that I know are safe.
The main reason that Windows XP is not the operating system of choice anymore, is that Windows 7 or 8 64 bit,will make use of the RAM on your PC to almost the full extent you have installed. XP 32 Bit will not be able to do this, and runs too darn slow to get any real work done.
Perhaps it is time to dump XP and move on to a faster OS?

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well for starters
Sep 20, 2013 12:35PM PDT

you've done well to use a security suite with a Host Intrusion Prevention System and the use of backup on-demand scanners is good too, but you don't mention how you connect to the internet,
---you should use a router if possible if you use a wireless connection use wireless security and select wpa2 (or wpa just don't use wep) and make sure your wireless password is 63 characters(a-z, 1-9 ~,. etc.) long and utilizes as few repeating patterns as possible this is to negate brute force attacks on your network password and the use of wpa2 will make it harder for them to just crack the wireless security and get your password that way(if someone knows more in this area im no expert).
-----the other reason to use a router is the hardware firewall (this is supplementary to your existing firewall not a replacement).
---the other thing you can do is change the dns server to a filtered dns server(this will require research to find and select one and research by yourself on how to change your dns server if your security software doesn't already do this)a filtered dns server filters out known bad domains so that protects you to an extent, but the site has to be known to be bad first.
---you also don't mention your email program but if possible it should be configured to let your antivirus quarantine emails. and never open strange emails or any email you don't know the sender from (eg: you could win 1000$ right now just download our program) often times they're spam and might contain viruses same goes for downloading email attachments, never download what you don't trust.
---if your bios has write protection turn it on(there are a few bios viruses out there though these types of viruses tend to be limited to specific motherboards but their existence proves the concept)
---one last thing be vigilant don't visit strange sites, download strange programs, engage in illegal cracks, keygens etc. as these often have viruses in them that are harmful to your pc

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re router security?
Sep 21, 2013 11:30AM PDT

Good reply with a lot of good advice ,some of which is over my head unfortunately,but as far as the router is concerned ,when I bought my new one and had to use D-Link support to set it up,I was told that it would not be necessary to set the security on mine,as it was cable connected and not wireless?
What is the general opinion of router security then?

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Update if you can -- it's as little as $100 TOTAL
Sep 20, 2013 1:45PM PDT

Unless it is literally impossible to upgrade ("must have" software or hardware that can't run on Win 7/Cool you should.

Microcenter (and other places) has off-lease machines with Win 7 Home Premium for as low as $90 !! Realistically, the $139 machines would be a better buy -- a Core Duo 2 processor + 2GB RAM. Being off-lease, they're only about 3 years old and they have been refurbed/upgraded--new mouse and keyboard included, clean inside, etc. I bought a MC refurb about 2 years ago for around $120 with XP7 PRO and it was great.

Anyone who can't scrounge up about $170 total (if shipping plus sales tax are added) really has no business being on the Internet! And like I said, MC has units for as low as $90.

The bottom line is that except for a hobbyist-built machine that is upgraded piecemeal (e.g., my 2), sooner or later something is going break that will require hardware or software that just can't run under XP. Better to "bite the bullet" now than after a crash when everyone is telling you, "Gee ... we just don't support XP any more .... You know, it was discontinued years ago ...."

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Re application updates
Sep 20, 2013 2:20PM PDT

One thing no one is mentioning is that sometimes some update or periodic "verification" built into software will cause non-MS software (MS also, of course) to pop up a dialog box that the software needs to be re-activated with the vendor. Nowadays that is routinely done completely through the Web.

The problem is that eventually the vendor either gets bought out or completely stops support--they shut down the authentication server and phone/email/chat tech support can't do an activation either. So one day the software is working fine and the next it keeps kicking you out. At best, when you contact the vendor on-line or by phone they offer a discount to upgrade to the latest version. Which, of course, doesn't support PATA drives, floppies, AGP video, etc. on a decade-old OS.

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No Core 2 Duo CPUs
Sep 20, 2013 2:34PM PDT

I don't recommend a Core 2 Duo CPU, if you buy a refurbished machine. They are slow with Windows 7. I'm an IT consultant and I recommend at least some kind of i3/i5/i7 or newer AMD CPU. Other problems are: hard drives have a tendency to fail on refurbished machines at a much higher rate, they often come with very short warranties, and they're very, very bare bones. 2GB is not enough to comfortably run Windows 7. The sweet spot is at least 4GB.

Dell's currently got the Dell Inspiron 660s for $349 brand new. And you can choose Windows 7 Home Premium as your OS. If you don't mind Windows 8, they have this computer refurbished for $262.

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Re Core 2 Duos
Sep 22, 2013 3:36PM PDT

You say you're an IT consultant. A lot of folks who just use computers for "normal stuff" are perfectly happy with a machine that isn't a speed demon. I'm an attorney and none of the folks at work have speed problems with our Win 7 machines, and I don't have problems with the two machines I have at home either.

I also didn't have problems when I was running Win 7 on Pentium 4 machines with 2.5GB DDR and WD 80-GB PATA drives. All of them run fine even watching videos.

Yeah, it take awhile when I'm transcoding DVD's to WMV but that's not something I normally do.

And remember -- I'm not talking about super-speed machines, I'm talking about "cheapest reasonable way" for someone currently running a machine that's probably at least 7 years old.

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Reality check?
Sep 20, 2013 5:14PM PDT

Your being an idiot saying people shouldn't be on the internet because they can't come up with $170.00 (I wanted to use much stronger language)
Many have better things to do with what money they do have
Where have you been for the past few years, the recession isn't over, the 'job creation' is a bad joke and mainly at minimum wage, even if you have higher level degree, without a degree you can barely get an interview
There are also thousands of people on fixed income, have you taken a look at free ads? people need basic things like food or clothes and are using job center or library computers to search for 'stuff'