How Do I Keep Video Quality When Transferring Tape To DVD?

Now, beyond purchasing a MiniDV camcorder that records great-quality video, what else do I need to look out for in regards to transferring this footage to DVD?

? Quality of DVD burner?
? What kind of connection from camcorder to the DVD burner?
? Kind/brand of DVD matter?
? Anything else?

Or is all of this moot because DVD quality is going to inherently be better than anything I record on a MiniDV tape (i.e. there's no way I'm going to lose any video quality in the transfer)?

? Quality of DVD burner?

It's digital. If it doesn't get the bits right, it's defective. My newest DVD recorders at the office were a HP Lightscribe and some LG Lightscribe. There were 49 and 33 bucks. I'm unsure if you can get better.

? What kind of connection from camcorder to the DVD burner?

Forgive me but this is usually done with a PC or Mac in the middle. There are a few rather expensive boxes that do this but they cost more than a PC or Mac.

? Kind/brand of DVD matter?

Yes, I like the brand names. For demo stuff I buy the cheap 100 packs.


? Anything else?

Don't unpack that USB cable that comes with the camcorder.

Bob

the last I heard, one hour of DV takes up about 13.5 gigs.

I don't use DV so I'm not sure what the exact amount of data it is composed of. I've heard anywhere from 8 to 25GB. (I assume the 25GB estimation was HD video.) In other words, it takes much more space than a DVD.

A single layer DVD holds 4.7 gig. Double Layer DVDs hold 8.5 gig.

A 60 minute miniDV tape storing 60 minutes of standard definition video will indeed translate to 13.5 gig of data on a hard drive when imported to the computer. (High Definition Video will turn into 3x-4x more space on your copmputer's hard drive.)

Once can use a writable DVD as a storage media for data files (examples include .dv, .mov or .avi data files - heck, even MS Word .doc or Excel .xls or PowerPoint .ppt files fall into this category). Generally speaking, a traditional DVD player connected to a TV will not be able to playback these data files. But you CAN play thes files back on a computer with an optical drive and an application capable of using the file to be opened.

To prepare a DVD to use the traditional DVD player connected to a TV for playback, when "burning" a DVD (generally on the optical drive in a computer) it is different than a data file DVD. You *might* do this on a DVD burner that looks like a traditional DVD player (but with DVD burning capabilities) - many of which have a VHS tape bay, too - BUT their goal is typically to copy the VHS tape to the DVD - and might not have computer connectivity. When transporting high resolution, standard definition or high definition video files, FireWire is a good choice because of its high-speed data streaming speed - USB can peak high speed, but generally cannot sustain high speed data throughput.

The format of the files when burned in this DVD-player-ready manner is different than the data file type format... DVDs like this and those which have pre-recorded movies (that one can rent or buy) have files in a VOB format... and there will also be a couple of other folders on the DVD... and when you first insert the DVD to the player, the whole menuing thing appears and you can select scenes and have stills and other extra features...

I'll be purchasing a VHS/DVD player combo unit, which will also be able to burn video DVDs. I'm not really talking about hooking my camcorder up to my computer, creating a data file, and then burning it to a data disc. I'm taking about hooking my camcorder directly into the DVD unit, which will be designed specifically for burning DVD movies, and copying the MiniDV footage over to the DVD.

What I think I'm hearing though is that a DVD can't sustain the quality of the MiniDV tape when transferred? In other words, if I tried to simultaneously play and copy 1 hour of high-quality MiniDV footage straight to a DVD (set on its best-quality recording mode), then the video quality of the DVD wouldn't be as good?

If that's the case, is there any kind of workaround?

If you set it on XP mode (highest quality recording), it will allow you to record 1 hour of video. That means 1 hour ~ 4.7GB once on the DVD. However, the DV equivalent was 1 hour ~ 13GB. Your choice.

Boya84 already said that you could burn the raw data file to a DVD using a computer, but those files are just data files and cannot be played on a DVD player. You could use a dual layer DVD to get 8.5GB of space available, but one hour of raw video would still not fit onto one disc.

Is there a reason why you are trying to get them to DVD besides the purpose of an archive?

quality of the resulting DVD will be just about as good as the original miniDV tape - as standard definition... specifically, mere mortals like me would not see much difference unless someone pointed out the issues to me. BUT, before I REALLY commit to that, I would like to know what manufacturer and model DVD burner deck you are getting or already have.

Something like this http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/panasonic-dmr-eh75v-dvd/4505-6463_7-31864416.html?tag=moreprod looks interesting - but I don't know what happens when you connect a camcorder DV port to the FireWire input of the deck and I would need to do some research.

I don't know if that digital video is being directly written to the DVD burner mechanism or if it being compressed and deposited onto the Hard Drive first then burned to the DVD.

The first is that the burner is designed to convert VHS (very low resolution) to mpeg 2, and burn a DVD. It's virtually certain that the device cannot accept a DV stream. First, it probably doesn't have a firewire connection. Second, it's probably not programmed to convert DV to mpeg 2.

If the camera can output component audio and video, you may be able to connect it to your burner. However, the original digital data will be lost, and the resolution used to burn the DVD will be low (VHS).

The typical flow for miniDV is to send data to a computer. The computer then renders the DV data into a form which can be used to burn a DVD.

"If you flip down the front panel, you'll notice additional controls, as well as an A/V input with S-Video, a FireWire input for DV camcorders, and an SD media-card slot."

So for the moment, I will hurry up and wait for the manufacturer and model number that the poster is looking at.

Talking specifics, I'm looking into purchasing the Sony Handycam DCR-HC96 camcorder ( http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/sony-handycam-dcr-hc96/4505-6500_7-31649785.html?tag=sub ), and the Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK DVD-Recorder/VHS combo unit ( http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/panasonic-dmr-ez47vk/4505-6463_7-32331259.html?tag=prod.txt.1 )... do you think those two work in conjunction with each other? The Panasonic DVD recorder has s-video and firewire connectivity. And it looks like Sony's camcorder has a firewire port.

I want a permanent way to archive my footage, and DVDs are currently the most universal format out there. 10 years from now, when stores don't sell MiniDV camcorders any more, and mine breaks (a smiliar thing has just happened to my old Hi8 camcorder), I want to still be able to watch these home movies easily. So really, it's not a matter of "if" I should burn my footage to DVDs. The question is "what's the best way to do it and maintain the quality of my original MiniDV tape recordings?"

So, am I doomed to lose picture quality no matter what? Will recording 1-hour of high-quality MiniDV tape footage directly to a DVD set (via Firewire) on its best 1-hour recording mode hold up image-wise? I don't want to overbuy in regards to the camcorder (that will have great image quality) just to have it ruined in the DVD conversion.

DVD...

Just be sure of your return policies if your combo doesn't work out.

Bob

I just recently purchased that DVD recorder. It suits my needs just fine however I do not have a miniDV camcorder so I have not tried the Firewire to DVD process. From reading the manual it seems like a simple process.

Let's clarify some things. Will you lose quality? Yes. How much? Well if one hour of miniDV is 13.5GB and one hour of video on a DVD is 4.7GB, that's a compression factor of: 13.5/4.7 = 2.87.

The absolute best way to keep the original quality is to transfer it to a computer and burn the raw video file as a data DVD and not as an MPEG2 video file.

of a one hour miniDV tape don't you? The DV must be compressed in order to fit. It is usually compressed by converting it to mpeg 2.

Of course, if the device can span DVDs, then it could act as a back up device capable of storing the full tape.

camcorder and the DVD recorder you want to get - and the reason why you want to do this - that helps fill in a lot of blanks. But there are some items I'd like to clarify...

First, the DVD recorder... The link you supplied looks like the newer version of the recorder link/review I supplied. Will it transfer the data from the camcorder to the DVD recorder into DVD format? Yes - via FireWire or S-video or composite. I went to Panasonic and read through the manual, and the applicable section starts on page 31. http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Video/DVD-Recorders-Players/DVD-Recorders/model.DMR-EZ47VK

Then I went to Sony - just to make sure the HDR-HC96 has the "Burn DVD" selection... http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=DCRHC96
Note on page 47 in the Play/Edit section... "Burn DVD"... then go to page 71 under Dubbing to VCR/DVD device. To do this, you will need to get a 4-pin to 4-pin FireWire cable.

Please note that when you do this DV to DVD dubbing, there is no control of what ends up on the DVD - other than everything that is on the miniDV tape while in this transfer mode. You will be downsampling from Digital Video on the miniDV tape to a standard definition video. If all you want to do is view the resulting DVD, my bet is it will look just fine. If you decide you want to edit that DVD footage, you will need to rip that DVD and the resulting file will be obviously degraded.

This kind of takes me to the "permanent way to archive footage". But before I go there, I'd like to cover off the Hi8 issue... While you might not walk into a store for a Hi8 camcorder, Sony still makes them
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11039458
and while it does not have a FireWire (i/.Link/DV) port, it does do analog (composite) video out which could also be connected to the DVD recorder you listed... I would not expect to buy new tapes for that camcorder, but there are lots of sources - maybe not the neighborhood drugstore, but here in California, I know Fry's Electronics and several other places carry Hi8 (and Digital tapes... and there is always http://www.tapestockonline.com/hi8hi8tapes.html and lots of othe online suppliers.

Keep in mind that Hi8 is an analog format - and the footage stored on those tapes will ultimately be susceptible to "degradation" similar to VHS tape analog signal degradation. If you have not already converted those Hi8 tapes to some sort of low-loss digital format, and if there is footage you want to keep "forever", the sooner you convert that footage, the better off you (and that image quality) will be. To say that Hi8 is not supported is not quite accurate - though I would agree it is not as widely supported as it was ten years ago.

Now... on to your "archive" item... DVDs may be "the most universal format out there", but they are not considered an "archive" medium unless you use special DVDs. The digital information on the digital tape you have from the miniDV tape camcorder is actually a good archive - which is why banks and other large corporations and any other organization uses digital tape for long-term storage. In a previous life I was an IT manager and, in my opinion, digital data is digital data - including digital video/audio - Optical disc is fine for short term - but not long-term archive. I agree that these organizations do not use miniDV tape specifically - they use DAT or some other digital tape media for long-term archive... but it is digital tape media and not optical disc.

Honestly, I can't see into the future and tell you that any particular media will be in favor or supported. But based on experience, I will say that there will be devices available that can read minDV tape well into the future - and it is likely your miniDV tape will provide video quality similiar to the video quality it has today, presuming it is not stored in a harsh environment. Personally, I store my miniDV tapes in a fire-proof/waterproof box like this one
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4859030;jsessionid=og1mux5omOSL7pexvdN4IA**.node2?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
with a desicant.

Today, after capturing video on my miniDV camcorders and editing the footage in my computer, I output to DVD - so I can watch it on a DVD player and share as needed... but I also export back out to the camcorder so I have an archive for long-term storage on miniDV (digital) tape in addition to keeping the original source video miniDV tapes. The DVD version is for day to day use and not considered an "archive".

I have been asked to provide DV format video on DVD to some folks for whom I have done video work. This is because transferring multiple gigabyte files over the internet can be problematic. So I save the edited video file out as a DV file, copy it to a single or double layer DVD as appropriate (so using the optical disk as a data disk, not a DVD-player readable DVD). When they get the disc, the first thing they do is copy the DV file from the DVD to their file server - and run the back up routine - which writes to digital tape. That digital tape is then stored off-site as their long-term archive.

And it will cost way more to fix it than to buy a new one. But why would I want to buy another Hi8 camcorder? I wouldn't. It's an old, outdated piece of equipment. I do, however, need to get the footage off of my Hi8 tapes and archived onto something more permanent and universal... like a DVD. I suppose I'll end up buying some kind of VHS/Hi8 tape converter and burn my Hi8 tapes through my VHS/DVD combo unit.

The same thing goes for a MiniDV camcorder and its tapes. First of all, it's inconvenient and impractical to think you'll have to hook up your camcorder to your TV every time you want to watch home movies. Secondly, this is all assuming the MiniDV camcorder I purchase will last forever, and I will always be able to use it to play my MiniDV tapes... which I won't. This camcorder will eventually die just like the last. And then 10 years down the road, I'll be stuck wil dozens of MiniDV tapes that I can't play, just like I am now with my unusable Hi8 tapes. Thirdly, my understanding is that anything "tape" based in going to degrade. And I want some sort of footage that I can pass along to my great grandchildren 80 years from now.

Someone mentioned I should burn data DVDs for permanent archival. But you can't play these on most DVD players, right? So I would essentially be storing this footage for later, waiting for there to be some universal consumer format that can handle that size of a file. I guess digital data files (definitely not tape-based products) and merged computers/tv/entertainment centers are probably the future? But for the foreseeable future, if I want my movies easily accessed, DVD is the way to go, right? I think 1 hour is about the best-quality DVD you can burn on a consumer DVD burner, right? (I really wouldn't want to burn a 30-minute DVD anyway or else I should be looking at the Mini-DVD camcorders.) And I assume the aforementioned "special" DVD that has more storage capacity ins't really a mainstream consumer kind of product, right?

I truly wanted a camcorder that has great picture quality and creates media in its final format. But I suppose the main problem here is that we're in a transition phase of technology. DVD-based and hard drive-based camcorders haven't quite caught up to the quality of the MiniDV. But 10 years from now, the tape-based MiniDV will be practically obsolete (which is why I have had such trouble even considering them). DVD-based and hard drive based camcorders will dominate the market, and presumably have caught up quality-wise.

So, I have 2 conclusions:
1. I shouldn't worry about getting the best quality MiniDV camcorder becasue it's going to be downgraded to a standard DVD anyway. Or, is that line of thinking not exactly correct? Will high-picture-quality MiniDV footage hold up any better than medium-picture-qaulity hard drive footage, when both are burned to a DVD as the end product?
2. If I'm doomed to lose picture quality in the DVD conversion, maybe I should just resign myself to average picture quality and choose a DVD-based camcorder for its convenience?

What do you think?

That was answered many times in prior posts and somewhat in our forum sticky.

The bottomline is it's your money and will eventually will make the decision you want to live with. I have no issues with miniDV and like it for reasons already in the sticky. I never cared for the DVD camcorders with spotty playback (some players work, some don't).

Bob

That is why I suggested getting one - to get to the video you have. I am not aware of any "hi8/VHS tape converter", but there are Hi8/Digital8 decks (which are more expensive that the camcorder) at the Sony site.

I didn't think connecting a camcorder to a modern TV was that tough. In my house, I either find the AV plugs on the side of the TV or flip open the little door on the front of the TV and the AV plugs are there. I think it takes the same amount of effort/time to plug in the camcorder, turn it on, insert the tape and hit play as it does to turn on the DVD player, insert the disc, turn on the audio system and hit play using the menuing selection thing...

If you bought the Hi8 camcorder 10 years ago - and there is still available from Sony a cheap Hi8 camcorder - if you really wanted to play your tapes, you could. So your argument to say you "can't do anything with your Hi8 tapes isn't standing up - you can, very easily. You are unwilling to do so. I guess it is the same with miniDV tape - the thing is, while I agree that there may be less support of miniDV tape in the future, I think it will be around in ten years. Just like there is at least one new Hi8 camcorder and there are tapes available for it.

Regarding your "anything tape based is going to degrade"... true enough. The magnetic particles will change over time - but this is true of optical disc media too, so don't fool yourself. The dyes used in making the optical disc do what it does, can - and will - degrade over time, too. In the analog environment, I whole-heartedly agree and the degraded signal will be icky. Many of us lived through the analog VHS and audio cassette tape days. In the digital environment, I don't know that I agree so much - but let's take this a step further... 10 years ago, CDs were the best thing since vinyl and - oh my, vinyl was dead. From my vantage point, CDs are dead now. What makes you think that in 80 years there will be DVD players? So let's stay with a moderate 10 years in the future... BETA died 20 years ago... VHS is pretty much dead beginning 6 years ago - but you can still get machines that will playback those tapes. And you can get tapes too. Easily.

Since you have already convinced yourself of the need to archive to optical disc, you would be wise to understand what those discs are... this is a good start: http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/ including some detail on those "special" discs.

This is also an interesting read: http://www.film-to-video.com/tutorial_page04.html

"And I assume the aforementioned "special" DVD that has more storage capacity ins't really a mainstream consumer kind of product, right?" A single layer, full sized, DVD can hold up to 4.7 gig of data - and when burned from your computer will allow you a little less than an hour. A double layer DVD is not a "special DVD" - and allows nearly 2 hours of standard definition video to be burned. Most DVD burners sold with computers in the last 2 years or so can handle double layer DVDs - but you should check what the capabilities are on yours before assuming what it can handle. Double layer DVDs are indeed "mainstream" and most DVD players can playback the DVD formatted (VOB) files. Double layer DVDs are typically what purchased or rental movie DVDs use since those movies and all the extras need more than the 4.7 gig of space found on single layer DVDs.

The "special" DVD I mentioned are those which use gold rather than silver in their storage media formulation. These can be played back in "regular" DVD players, too. Since you are so concerned about "future proofing", I would say that both single layer and double layer DVDs are also on their way out perhaps in favor of HD-DVD and/or BluRay DVD. These discs can hold up to 50 gig... and are readily available though a bit on the expensive side.
http://www.shopping.com/xGS-Blu_Ray_Burners~NS-1~linkin_id-8009706
http://www.shopping.com/xFS?KW=Blu+Ray+disc&CLT=SCH
The consumer HD-DVD burners have not quite made it to the US in mass quantities...
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/05/toshiba-unveils-sd-h903a-hd-dvd-burner-for-pcs/

I suppose the definition of "mainstream consumer product" would be subjective - but this stuff is available to anyone who wants to buy today, so I suppose that qualifies.

Personally, I hope hard drive and DVD based camcorders go away. The fact that the built-in microphones are in such close proximity to the motors spinning those discs makes for unecessary potential background noise. Yes, miniDV tape transport can also be picked up, but I use external mics - so I don't need to deal with that. So what tips the scale in miniDV tape's favor? Superior video quality and long shelf life - so that earns my hard-earned $. Memory card based camcorders would be a whole lot better. No motor. You can get those now, but the memory card prices are still a bit high and their video quality is around that of the hard drive machines...
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644498780
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Camcorders/Hi-Def-Camcorders/model.HDC-SD5_11002_7000000000000005702
And we don't know what the shelf life is of the memory cards... but I guess I could back that digital video up to digital tape.

Ten years ago, you bought a camcorder that was the technology of the day.
If you buy a camcorder today, in ten years, it will most likely be "obsolete" regardless of the format you choose. If you look at the DVD and hard drive camera offerings from the manufacturers, they already "dominate" the market just in the pure product numbers. That does not mean they are the "best available quality"... we learned that with the BETA/VHS wars of 20 years ago.

You should get the best quality video you can afford. I use a miniDV based 1080i high definiton camcorder. When downsampled, it provides the clearest standard definition video available. Even though the 1080i video is downsampled to standard definition when I burn a DVD in my computer, it is clearer than when I shoot in standard definiton and burn to standard definition DVD. Because I also output the hidef footage back out to the camcorder, when I decide I want a HD-DVD or BluRay burner I will have hidef source video to burn on them. But I will always have that miniDV tape archive.

If DVD camcorders worked consistantly, I'd say go for it, but there are too many posts on this forum from people who have problems - finalize or not; can't play; poor source for editing in a computer... If you get a hard drive based camcorder, don't get the cheapest one... expect to spend at least $700-$800. But my recommendation still stands - for best video quality AND archival, miniDV tape is the preferred option... and no one coming through this thread has refuted that.

By the way, technology is ALWAYS in transition.

These questions suggest to me that you are missing something. The only time that you can see the original quality is if you plug your camcorder directly into your TV. Putting your video onto a DVD-video compliant disk involves compression, regardless of your method. If your plug your camera into a set-top DVD recorder, this compression occurs as apart of the process.
Or, you may "capture" your video onto your computer. The camcorder may include software for doing this; my Panasonic did. What you have at that point, on your computer, is an .avi file that is about 13GB per hour of video. You will be able to view that on your computer, but even if you *could* fit it onto a DVD, you couldn't play it in a DVD player because .avi isn't the correct format.
The .avi must be converted to a compatible .mpeg and this step involves compression. Nero (NeroVision) will do this. That .mpeg can also be viewed on your computer, but copying it directly to a DVD still won't work, even though it will fit, because you still haven't achieved the correct file format.
The next step is to edit the .mpeg with NeroVision (or my favorite, Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD), which also creates the correct file formats in the final step.
The original 1-hour .avi, after compression, will fit on a DVD, with little decrease in video quality. I don't think you will notice.

I've been doing this for years with an older Pioneer DVD recorder and a newer Toshiba and Light-On DVD recorders. I won't buy a DVD recorder that does not have a Firewire input. It is the quickest and highest quality result. I archive mini-Dv to DVD recording in the XP mode (1 hour) only. The DVD Recorder converts it to MPEG 2 in real time and keeps the audio digital.
There is one caution: I have found that with my older DVD recorder (Pioneer) and even occasionaly with the Toshiba, that a transfer will abort through firewire, if there is broken control track on the DV source tape. If there a spot on the tape between scenes or events that has no signal, the DVD recorder reads it like it is the end of the tape and stops recording. I've learned through years and years in the business not to let that happen, but sometimes one gets by.
DV is a great acquisition format, I would never record product on a DVD camcorder. There are some higher-end tapeless formats like Sony's Blu-Ray technology based XD-Cam and Panasonic's P-2 which get into big time professional bucks. But if you have to ask...it's too much.

dvmeister
texas