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How did my generation, which laughed at Archie Bunker

by Ziks511 / March 28, 2005 8:38 AM PST

end up becoming him? Bitter, bigoted, and longing for a President just like Herbert Hoover. Apparently we have become, not our parents, which would have been admirable, but our grandparents, who's generation created the Great Depression.

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Absolute nonsense
by EdH / March 28, 2005 8:57 AM PST

Much more bitterness and bigotry on the left.

And that theme song always ticked me off because Hoover was a good man, trashed by the left wing propaganda machine.

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I agree that Hoover was a good man, just not a good
by Ziks511 / March 28, 2005 9:01 AM PST
In reply to: Absolute nonsense

President at the particular time he was called on to serve. And there is not bitterness and bigotry on the left, we leave that to you. There is anger and disappointment and a sense of being cheated on the left.

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Have you listened to Howard Dean lately?
by EdH / March 28, 2005 9:40 AM PST

Who says he hates Republicans and calls them "brain dead"? That's bigotry and only one example of left-wing bigotry.

Many leftists (on SE too, I've pointed it out from time to time)single out religious people and anyone who just doesn't agree with them for incredible scorn and hatred.

Ever listen to the speeches at ANSWER rally? Pay any attention to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? Do you know what goes on on college campuses regarding anyone who does not conform to the liberal agenda? Political Correctness, what's that all about? The lefty columnists who wrote almost identical essays comparing people who voted for Bush to the Taliban?

Have you ever noticed who the villains are in almost every movie or TV show? Businessmen, Christians, Republicans often specifically singled out as wrong, misguided or evil. All In The Family, which you cite NEVER showed anyone on the right as other than stupid, prejudiced or corrupt.

"Anger and disappointment and a sense of being cheated" was Hitler's excuse as well.

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(NT) (NT) No answer? Ducking and dodging again.
by EdH / March 29, 2005 5:43 PM PST
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Let's see, here on Speakeasy we say that Social Security
by Ziks511 / March 28, 2005 9:48 AM PST
In reply to: Absolute nonsense

is Welfare, we praise a President who has declared war on Roosevelt's social safety net and who has rolled taxes back to pre Roosevelt levels and who has virtually exempted the corporate sector from tax. We're afraid of Universal Health Care as creeping socialism when every country in the industrialized west has it. Oh, yeah, except the US.

We whine about welfare and taxes and anybody we disagree with we accuse of being socialist, (or of being "liberal" as if that were a bad thing). We're afraid to talk about Blacks and Hispanics but we have no trouble denigrating Muslims, people from the Middle East generally, and of suggesting that God was getting even with the Muslims in Indonesia through the earthquake and tsunami there.

You're right there's no resemblance at all. Eeedith, wheredjou put my shoes. "Equal ta mee, you ain't even equal ta him." Said to a Puerto Rican couple he was sharing a ride in an elevator with, the "him" was Roscoe Lee Brown playing an African diplomat.

(Hoover must have been pretty good, Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower all called on him.)

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So disagreeing with you on several issues is bigotry?
by EdH / March 28, 2005 10:09 AM PST

Could it be, just possibly that you are wrong on those issues? I think calling people who disagree with you on issues a bigot is bigotry itself. We are allowed to disagree you know.

By the way, I've often wondered, if there's nothing wrong with being a liberal, why do liberals object so to being labelled as such?

Archie Bunker was a fictional character (a caricature really) created by liberals as a figure of fun. You know, kinda like Stepinfetchit of an earlier age.

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No, making choices to castigate people based on cultural
by Ziks511 / March 28, 2005 10:22 AM PST

origin or political or religious beliefs is bigotry. You haven't noticed the quickness of some to complain about Muslims on this forum (Mark). That's bigotry. The use of "liberal" as a term of opprobrium is bigoted. I'd be tempted to say that to consider conservative views middle-of-the road bigoted but it's just self-important and wrong. To be right wing is by definition to be walking along the right side of the road, how far to the right is your choice. To be liberal is to be walking down the middle of the road and to be socialist is the left side of the road. To call conservatism middle of the road is to do away with the right side of the road entirely, but there's always somebody to your right so ... (unless you admit to being an extremist). Certainly theres a whole super highway to my left and right.

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Total nonsense
by EdH / March 28, 2005 10:44 AM PST

Not much to your left; you're halfway in the ditch.

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How about the neocon slur and Nazi/Hitler references?
by Evie / March 28, 2005 8:57 PM PST

Liberal = middle of the road? C'mon, even YOU don't believe that.

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Absolutely I believe it. I'm just surprised that you think
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 2:53 PM PST

you're walking down the road when you're fighting your way through weeds in the ditch. You take my analogy to any country in the world except the United States and they'll agree with it. That's why I think the US has lost its way and certainly its perspective. Apparently the only acceptable politics to you folks is Reaganite Republicanism. Hell, even Barry Goldwater thought that stuff was way out in right field, and said so.

I assume you know where the Left and Right traditions came from and therefore that my analogy is accurately drawn. If not I will explain its historical genesis.

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I stand by my assertion that the whole framing of the SS
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 2:58 PM PST

debate by the Bush Administration and its lackeys is a Big Lie of "almost Hitler-like" proportion. I am certainly not saying that anyone in this government is like the big H, but the lie is so egregious it beggars the imagination.

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Instead of calling people names
by EdH / March 29, 2005 6:13 PM PST

because they disagree with your opinion about Social Security, why don't you explain why you think they are wrong? People are allowed to disagree, whether you like it or not. Calling people liars and bigots is not a valid argument. Can you present another one?

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There's that 'WE' again Rob. When was the last time you
by Kiddpeat / March 28, 2005 2:43 PM PST

paid US income taxes?

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KP, it's "we at Speakeasy", not "we Americans"
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 2:46 PM PST

I paid income tax last year like I always do and I owe income tax this year and will be paying. Investments you know. The investments used to pay the property taxes on our property down there. I'm going to have to rework them the next time we're down so we get a better return.

Why do you want to pay them for me? Nice of you to offer but I couldn't let you. Wrong politics.

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Caroll O'Conner
by Steven Haninger / March 28, 2005 9:02 AM PST

(who played him) is anything like Archie Bunker in real life. The entire character was a well played satire of his type....and even those like him might have felt a false alliance with the character who was actually causing them to make fun of themselves.]:) I just think the timing of the series was perfect. It would not work today.:)

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(NT) (NT) More bull from Harpers
by EdH / March 28, 2005 10:26 AM PST
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Something has gone seriously haywire...
by crowsfoot / March 28, 2005 11:20 AM PST

It sure looks like blind, burn-it-all-down hatred coming from the Right to me. Certainly there is no feeling of We. This obsessed running up of The National Debt --- TO KILL SOCIAL PROGRAMS --- crusade, is the most self-hating, self-destructive, cynical, anti-American movement that I can imagine!!! In fact, it's worse than I imagined at the height of my angry hippie days. Where are the REAL Republicans? Why don't they care anymore? Gone to ground till after The Purge, is my bet.

Garrison Keillor

Something has gone seriously haywire with the Republican Party. Once, it was the party of pragmatic Main Street businessmen in steel-rimmed spectacles who decried profligacy and waste, were devoted to their communities and supported the sort of prosperity that raises all ships. They were good-hearted people who vanquished the gnarlier elements of their party, the paranoid Roosevelt-haters, the flat Earthers and Prohibitionists, the antipapist antiforeigner element. The genial Eisenhower was their man, a genuine American hero of D-Day, who made it OK for reasonable people to vote Republican. He brought the Korean War to a stalemate, produced the Interstate Highway System, declined to rescue the French colonial army in Vietnam, and gave us a period of peace and prosperity, in which (oddly) American arts and letters flourished and higher education burgeoned?and there was a degree of plain decency in the country. Fifties Republicans were giants compared to today?s. Richard Nixon was the last Republican leader to feel a Christian obligation toward the poor.

In the years between Nixon and Newt Gingrich, the party migrated southward down the Twisting Trail of Rhetoric and sneered at the idea of public service and became the Scourge of Liberalism, the Great Crusade Against the Sixties, the Death Star of Government, a gang of pirates that diverted and fascinated the media by their sheer chutzpah, such as the misty-eyed flag-waving of Ronald Reagan who, while George McGovern flew bombers in World War II, took a pass and made training films in Long Beach. The Nixon moderate vanished like the passenger pigeon, purged by a legion of angry white men who rose to power on pure punk politics. ?Bipartisanship is another term of date rape,? says Grover Norquist, the Sid Vicious of the GOP. ?I don?t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.? The boy has Oedipal problems and government is his daddy.

The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers and corporate shills, faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, Lamborghini libertarians, people who believe Neil Armstrong?s moonwalk was filmed in Roswell, New Mexico, little honkers out to diminish the rest of us, Newt?s evil spawn and their Etch-A-Sketch president, a dull and rigid man suspicious of the free flow of information and of secular institutions, whose philosophy is a jumble of badly sutured body parts trying to walk. Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we?re deaf, dumb and dangerous.
Rich ironies abound! Lies pop up like toadstools in the forest! Wild swine crowd round the public trough! Outrageous gerrymandering! Pocket lining on a massive scale! Paid lobbyists sit in committee rooms and write legislation to alleviate the suffering of billionaires! Hypocrisies shine like cat turds in the moonlight! O Mark Twain, where art thou at this hour? Arise and behold the Gilded Age reincarnated gaudier than ever, upholding great wealth as the sure sign of Divine Grace.

There is an endless supply of white men.
There has always been a limited number of human beings.
- Old Lodge Skins


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A hate-filled polemic...
by EdH / March 28, 2005 5:03 PM PST

Laughable and pathetic. Proving what?

Time for you guys to look at yourselves instead of criticizing others.

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Thank you for proving my comment about Bitterness if not
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 3:05 PM PST

Bigotry (yet). How anyone can find Garrison Keillor Hate-filled or pathetic I cannot fathom. Laughable is a given since he is one of Americas best humorists and a gentle and generally non-partisan one at that.

So, bitter old man, don't hog the bathroom, Gloria's waiting to get in.

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He's foaming at the mouth
by EdH / March 29, 2005 5:36 PM PST

"Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks"

There's your gentle humor.

And who spews more hate on a daily basis than YOU?

Look at yourself.

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Oh get over yourself Ed. Though now you mention it
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 6:15 PM PST

his litany looks awfully familiar. Like the last Republican convention. I have to say your quotation is unfamiliar to me but I will now read it with much closer attention. He seems to have a good point.

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Duh. It's from the article that we were discussing...
by EdH / March 29, 2005 7:58 PM PST

So hate speech is acceptable if it comes from your side, then? How convenient.

And if anyone needs to "get over himself..." I mean really.

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by Glenda / March 30, 2005 12:02 AM PST

And you wonder, when you post something like this that you get what you asked for??? I think you purposely make posts to see just how many will rise to the bait! Sad, really sad!

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Thanks Ed, but for you I might have missed this. I am in
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 6:24 PM PST

your debt.

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Maybe if you would read instead of spouting off...
by EdH / March 29, 2005 8:01 PM PST

you would miss less and sometimes maybe know what the heck you are talking about.

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The left says bush has to cut back but screams
by Dragon / March 28, 2005 9:46 PM PST

bloody murder when he tries to cut.

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Not really, they're eager for him to cut back on the
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 4:02 PM PST

giveaways to the rich and to corporations.

I've already said I'd like to see the personal exemption for each taxpayer set at $30,000 with a 50% COLA adjustment annually and a graduated system from there up. Say 25% on the next $40,000 and an additional 25% on the next $50,000 and a final 25% on everything over that. Top tax rate 75% but only for earnings over $120,000. If you earn $200,000 you get to keep 25% of that last $80,000. Total tax payable on $200,000 = $95,000 still leaves you with $105,000 to make whoopee on, free and clear, and that taxes you at a rate of less than 50%. At that rate the US could have Universal Health Care and a healthy Social Security and the rich would still be rich. Why are the rich still rich in all those countries you think are too liberal or too socialist in Europe?

Of course that's all off the top of my head, perhaps the tax rate could be lower and the rich could be slightly richer, but only so long as EVERYBODY is taken care of first. People arent rich because they're good, or righteous, they're rich because they're lucky and because they work hard. People aren't poor because they're bad or lazy, they're poor because they're not as lucky, not as educated, haven't got good connections, maybe they're not as smart, but they still work hard, a lot of them work harder than many of the rich.

How do you feel about a country in 2005 that is trying to return itself to the 1920's economically, that has a greater disparity between rich and poor (or even middle class) than is found almost anywhere outside the Third World, and has lower taxes and poorer services than any country in the industrialized west including Japan and possibly Korea? Do you really think that's the right way to "promote the General Welfare of the people" spoken of in the Constitution of the United States? Is it your contention that everybody in the world is wrong except George Bush? If he was so smart, why did he drill all those dry holes?

Let's see, minimum exemption for a taxpayer $30,000, spousal exemption $15,000, first child $15,000, children after #1 $10,000, Permissable deductions, childrens post Secondary education if paid by parents. 50% mortgage deduction (never has been one in Canada, apparently).

That's it. There are no tax shelters, no loop holes, investments are taxed as income. Perhaps the first $5,000 dollars could be exempt to encourage investment, but maybe not

I wish I had access to a computer program for the national tax data base. You could play with this and really come up with a good program. Maybe it would be better to increase in increments of 10% in the tax rate rather than 25%, maybe you could peak out at 65% or 60%.

But there has to be a minimum corporate tax of 25%. Corporations use the resources of society, they depend on a stable workforce, they have to pay for these things they depend on. And they still get to keep 75%. There should however be a surcharge of 100% tax for those companies who have their head offices or significant accounting assets off shore. And a significant penalty for keeping the manufacturing base out of the country. That way the United States isn't housing and feeding and paying for a bunch of freeloaders like we are now.

For family farms maybe we could work out some sort of guaranteed annual minimum, rather than all those price supports that we deny we use but do.

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Thanks for this wonderful article Bob.
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 6:34 PM PST

And spot on with one or two minor quibbles (9/11 wasnt the greatest failure of intelligence, Dec 7 1941 was) but what a superb litany of wrongs from the Right since the B Movie actor played President.

And thanks for your supremely apposite Native American quotation too.


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Posted this article myself some time ago in a different
by Ziks511 / March 29, 2005 3:00 PM PST

context. The book "What's the Matter with Kansas" by the same author looks very good too. (the article is a small digest)

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