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Higgs-Boson particle - what it means

by Willy / July 9, 2012 4:59 AM PDT

Now that there seems to be some proof of its existance, it allows some rethinking. basically, IMO that it can be "manipulated" for mankind's use. Of course, this a long way's off and entails an entire new way of doing things and/or allow this to happen on a std. model. Overall, if this becomes common place, will new doors actually open?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/05/higgs-boson-find-could-make-light-speed-travel-possible-scientists-hope/

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/04/tech/physics-higgs-particle/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Do we dare even allow ourselves to think this? I'm sure nothing is practical now but you would think as things progress, its still new and not far from it wrapping. Are we playing God? Will this rip us apart as the full understanding is still unknown to us. Could we create a "singularity" and actually shallow ourselves up? Well, sleep well tonight kiddies. -----Willy Happy

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I can tell you one thing, the "God Particle" name was
by Ziks511 / July 9, 2012 11:56 AM PDT

invented by a journalist. It will take me quite a time to absorb, and to even half understand this. How I miss Nathan.

Rob

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Energy into mass
by Willy / July 9, 2012 3:14 PM PDT

They can't see it, that's why so many computer displays provide an outlook of it. The energy required to get a result is astonishing and now CERN is going into retrofit to better the energy input. If I recall right that part of Europe loses 1/10th of energy resources to allow the device to work to the level it needs. Is this the threshold for new periodic elements to emerge and also!!! become stable and be stockpiled? Where's my magnetic bottle when I need it? -----Willy Happy

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I fear that the half life of the artificial elements we know
by Ziks511 / July 9, 2012 4:03 PM PDT
In reply to: Energy into mass

of, Lawrencium and the like, are measured in milli and micro-seconds. Magnetic container or no, they'll decay into stuff we've already got.

This is criticism of whichever Administration cancelled the Super-conducting Super-collider in Texas, but the US could have found this out earlier if that had been allowed to be built. I think the tunnel is still there, maybe there should be a re-think on equipping it. Hard science may bring us solutions to any number of problems, as the Space Race did. I haven't heard an actual figure, but I'd say the Moon Race had paid for itself in computers and fabrics and other things, not to mention knowledge.

I can't claim it will be cheap, but neither was the activity of the Banks and Investment Houses, and that was just for the benefit of a few extremely wealthy individuals. The S^2C^2 (that's S squared C squared) could result in benefits for everyone, though not tomorrow, or next year, or possibly even next decade. But eventually. Imagine just dropping your little magnetic bottle into the cartridge container of your car and driving for a month, or a year, or even more. It would have to be affordable, but it would be very neat.

Rob

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About what good is all this.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / July 10, 2012 4:17 AM PDT

I won't go into detail, but a look at Proton Therapy is among one of the medical applications.

From memory the announcements on Higgs-Boson came out on July 4 which I thought was a fun day to publish such things.

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Maybe power up
by itsdigger / July 10, 2012 10:30 AM PDT

that old Flux Capacitor ? Grin

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The process,,,
by Willy / July 10, 2012 1:36 PM PDT

I saw a DVD about the Wright brothers and how they resolved the problem of flight. It's not they could fly after some problem solving but rather the whole process of getting what they needed done and resort to materials and application of same to get further than anyone else. Not only that, they weren't engineers or such in the true sense but one by one they solved problems and even put forth new ideas or improved old ones and discarded what they found from experimentation and/or primitive lab tests to be put to the test. BUT!!! after all was said and done and proved they were the ones that did fly and used an airplane that later provided the fundamentals of flight as are applied today. Alot of credit to be seen beyond the actual flight as amazing as that was. They also had to protect their patents as well and sue anyone that later used their hard earned lessons that others used, yada, yada. -----Willy Happy

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The deal is fields.
by crowsfoot / July 21, 2012 2:16 PM PDT

Of the four known fundimental fources, there is a known particle associated with each. A "carrier". The Higgs field is a highly speculative thing in and of it's self. Just because we have no other explantion of what gives rise to mass, doesn't mean that Higgs is right.

It will be just as interesting if this new thing doesn't fit, as if it does. Maybe more so.

God seems determined to remain hidden. He has given us the tools to carry on the hunt. But just the slightest descreptency will take us back to the drawing board.

Who can tell me whether the Higgs field explains both of the properties of mass? Gravity and inertia. Seems to me they need seperate explanations. ???

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Einstein explained gravity as a warping
by crowsfoot / July 21, 2012 2:36 PM PDT
In reply to: The deal is fields.

of space time. All well anf good. But to me inertia seems to be a seperate thing. The Higgs field is supposed to cover that. It's hard for me to see.

But then again, the Bose Einstein condensate is a mind boggling thing too.
Using BEC to Slow Down Light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK6HxdUQm5s

We're all missing some pieces. It's like we think real is real, but we're wrong somehow.

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New thought of why we're expanding
by Willy / July 21, 2012 4:59 PM PDT

PBS TV is showing via NOVA program what the fabric of the universe is. It's being explained and often it also shows the possibility of "back and forth" of the time arrow. That all physics today explains the total breakdown from the big bang is "all about disorder" due to entropy. They try to explain it by the breaking of full wine glass. You can see that happening, but you'll probably never see it going "backwards" back into a full glass of wine again. They touch on much of what has become the "standard model". They further try to make sense of it and the likelihood of the unseemly of it all as well, because it can be possible. Here, I understand but they lose me for lack of trying to see behind the mirror sorta thing. It's a good pgm. to watch and explains or fulfills pulling it all together for me what I've been trying to understand.

It has allowed me to try to propose why the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. This observation has show the universe is expanding and pulling away from each other will sooner or later be at the speed of light. However, it has also been shown that at one time we were going much slower and got to a point, that it then simply started to speed-up. Here, I propose that at this magic point, was the lost of gravity at it greatest overall effect(to come together) for the entire universe. Gravity is still working but can't hold on to the total universe as it expands, it's not that gravity has lost strength but full-blown expanding universe effect.

Why? It is because the leading edge of the bubble that is the universe is at a ideal perfect form. That what is behind this edge/boundary is all that is physics, it's actually being made on the spot. Ahead of this, there is no physics, so nothing is there a "real nothing". It doesn't lose any steam going out and the tug of gravity is not lost, no it is still in effect, DRAGGING the rest of the universe with it. However, the universe is getting bigger so the gravity of the "big crunch" can't happen as it flying away from that magic point that gravity could overtake the big bang energy rushing out has passed, now only forever expanding until we would be the lonely gaxaly in some time in the future. It would become a less starry night and what we see as stars are local to us and further away lights are galaxies having the energy to be seen afar. Also, it should become much colder as a whole to the universe. All that mass would be stretched unto infinity until we have only particles or if you like smaller string theory matter being the only substance around as we cool down and stretched till the end. adios -----Willy Happy

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Man!
by itsdigger / July 21, 2012 5:11 PM PDT

That's Deep Willy ! Wink Digger

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Yes.
by crowsfoot / July 23, 2012 6:06 AM PDT

The Fabric of the Cosmos
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fabric-of-cosmos.html

We've been wondering about the nature of the nothingness, out of which everything came, for a long time. Obviously it wasn't nothing. The only logicaly thought is that more came out than what was originaly there. It's the whole "broken symmetry" idea. For time to have be created, anti-time must have happened too, and flown off, unaccessable to us to abserve. The same with matter and anti-matter. They must have been around in equal amounts at one time.

It was 10 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lb bag. Something had to give. This chrystalized form of energy that we are all made of, kind'a fell out as ash. There's no reason for us to think that the much bigger things didn't make their own compromises and just flew away.

There's a very logical idea that different bubbles in the big bang condenced and gave it all up at different times.

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My understanding breaks down pretty early in
by crowsfoot / July 23, 2012 6:26 AM PDT
In reply to: Yes.

what the smart people talk about.

It seems to me that there is no ligical limit to the size of virtual particles that cause the Casimir effect . Why can't this be the dark energy? If the mass in the universe, and the distance between masses, limits the size of virtual particles. Then as the universe expands, larger and larger virtual particles will be possible. This is an outward push. An INCREASING outward push as the masses in the universe become further apart.

How the Casimir effect works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPzlv6cvs8A

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1 theory and I'll rise you an atom
by Willy / July 23, 2012 2:08 PM PDT
In reply to: Yes.

Well, I see where they try from other sources explain that "we" as matter is nothing more than "globs" or clusters of matter that appeared out of the big bang once we started to cool down. That what are galaxies and all matter is the coalescence into lumps in space. Everything else is space, though not empty is still far smaller than a star or a meteorite for that comparison. That a time before the big bang everything was at a "unified state" and maybe the only time it ever was. How, it broke down and thus became the big bang, where everything starts its beginning. Time is said to exist before that, maybe not, as it needs an arrow to be, thus the beginning. It will never go back to a "big bang bubble", all that energy and substance is now out of the bag as it were. Further, it will need something more than gravity to bring it all back, something else has to exist for gravity to try to reclaim and thus return to a "big crunch" venue of things to come. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case, the expanding universe reigns. We would have to go back to 13.7B yrs. ago and see the event to be 100% sure, even with logical assumption and current observations, there is still alot or discovered. Its too much for a people of earth to think they can come to such conclusions and to do that from our point in space. maybe in another area of space, it appears quite different or allows different thinking to arise to suggest yet other conclusions. if we somehow collaborate it all, that would be a marvelous work.

Which is why the known 4 forces/fields to possibility make-up the unified theory are weak and strong force, plus nuclear force and gravity. So far, the CERN Higgs-Boson experiment was to allow us the opportunity to see where matter could under all these forces actually become the primary building block of matter, the seed if you will. That they need each other in some necessary way to allow it all to start. Wow, what a thought ------Willy Shocked

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A lot of things that exist,
by crowsfoot / July 25, 2012 8:38 AM PDT

just do not react with other things that exist. Neutrinos almostly totaly ignore all other forms of matter. Electrons, and all the electromagnect spectrum, don't travel at any other speed than the speed of light. Therefore they don't recognise time or space the way we do. It makes it difficult to see things through their eyes.

Expantion is / was the more ordered state. Or was it? Maybe it was just the more unified state.

They say that, at the big bang there is no reason to believe that everything dropped out of the state of expantion all at once. Or entered into this same agreement of crystalized energy that we observe. That doesn't mean we can't speculate and deduce further. If only we stand by the rules of science, that one proved, or disproved fact, can overturn whatever. Pick up the pieces an go on.

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In this area of Physics things are so strange that you need
by Ziks511 / July 25, 2012 12:39 PM PDT
In reply to: Yes.

a guide, which is why I was mourning yet again the death of Nathan Isgur, a physicist whom I knew here, who died 2 years after he was appointed to head the Jefferson Lab in Virginia. He did his PhD here in Toronto, and worked at the University of Toronto and at Oxford and at CERN and then here again until he was hired to run the Jefferson Lab. He began showing symptoms of Multiple Myeloma about 4 months after he and Karin moved down to Williamsburg, Va. She's still there, even though I keep begging her to come back here. She and he were both very special people whom I miss greatly.

I remember hearing about Physicists discussing this stuff, and one dismissing a theory as "not weird enough to be correct." Even Physicists have trouble getting their heads around this stuff.

Rob

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1 grain of truth and build a world around it
by Willy / July 25, 2012 1:25 PM PDT

Some time ago, I mentioned that when something is found that it leads to some conclusions and/or further along a line of thinking. However, sometimes that also goes straight into mind blogging assumptions or theory ramifications to produce yet other theories or allow a glimpse into what it all means in some form or another. Which is why, I get lost and/or find my self scratching my head and ask myself, "do they really think that"? is it physics or philosophy? But, you gotta love it to allow yourself to think on my own terms, at times I get some insight and see it myself or what they were trying to point out, several books, web pages or magazine or white paper reading ago. I still believe Gog is cheap and allow one process to differ only slightly and still get the job done for what we call "nature" or physics by another name. -----Willy Happy

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"Gog is cheap"
by crowsfoot / July 27, 2012 4:19 PM PDT

It's astonishing how many make a tremendously large living on selling their knowledge of Gog's intentions.

It's not that I don't belive in a creator, after all. It's just that these sellers of morality have no more idea of his nature or intentions than I do. They sell "the Gog Shaped Hole". And tell a story that excludes the tools we're given to really figure it out.

They fight the prossesscess of science. Science does not fight them. It's athoriitarinism. It's the slightest advantage over everybody else. It's the diliberate complication of the rules for the sake of driving fear into the "lesser" of us as to whether we stand to lose all we have. And handing more and more advantage to the privaleged.

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I belive that there's a perfictly logical,
by crowsfoot / July 27, 2012 5:04 PM PDT
In reply to: "Gog is cheap"

inborn, in-grained impulse to sacrofice onesself for the good of the group. I don't see the whole idea, that without the authorainitisum of some kind, the reading of Gog's mind, that we will all go astray. It's only against the very few, that we have to protect ourselves. And their BS is pretty transparent.

It's clear why some will claim knowledge of the mind, and intentons of, Gog. They've got. What other reason for the rest of us to their work for them?

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And them pay less than 15%
by crowsfoot / July 27, 2012 5:13 PM PDT

in taxes on the money their money makes. And us pay 35% on the money that labor makes? Gog shaped hole? Give me a break! What of: "All men created equal..."?

We (and our children) are paying interest on the debt that thier tax cuts caused. Who are we paying this interest to? To the rich. They own the debt.

SOMEBODY HELP ME!!!

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The whole enchilada
by Willy / July 28, 2012 12:09 AM PDT

Out of the previous post, I spelled God wrong, but I'm sure you caught that. An honest mistake.

However, you got off to the wrong foot or replied in some political terms. I'm not into getting into that nor do I want myself to follow anything along those lines.

My reference to God, is just that its quite outside of my realm to understand the full picture as physicists have tried to explain. Even, if we knew the very process of creation, it is still outside of human domain to think we can reproduce it even in a disillusionment state. I do refer to the "big bang" and find once again if you try to render it all down it takes alot of faith to believe this, because it gets to a point of belief as we have no real way to prove this, other than observation. To encompass it all would be a divine gift and yet we try. To explain how we got here from our point in space and then provide a theory(s) and all that encompasses, is a true "wow factor" and yet we do. I will continue to ponder this as i find it a fascinating in many aspects. adios -----Willy Happy

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I always said that God was outside the
by Diana Forum moderator / July 28, 2012 3:11 AM PDT
In reply to: The whole enchilada

interest of science. It's hard to do a double blind test of God. He/She is either there or not there everywhere. You can't have God in this study and not in the other study.

It's a question of faith and scientists don't deal in faith in their work.

Diana

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Allow me to explain...
by Willy / July 28, 2012 12:59 PM PDT

The past post of "God is cheap", I hope to explain it. I like to think that God upon making everything that is anything whether we know it or not, isn't "custom made" on the spot. But rather, God allows the laws of physics to manifest themselves as waves, fields, properties, laws, effects and general nature or any other name. That scientist by any name they study have found that gravity is the same here as across the universe. That if Achilles is right, give him a funlctrum he could move the Earth. That energy can be mass and vica-versa. That the sun is hot. God doesn't make new science(laws) when we discover something is either the same or slightly changed as it impacts its surrounding.

As for faith, I like to mention that often because that is what is left when you can't for the time being prove something, but the conclusion is so close it's a logical assumption. That was proven when Kapel(sp) discovered the placement of planets even though not all were discovered yet. His theory that upon observation and current results allowed him to mathematically proposed planets should be at a certain distance and be of an orbit found there. Faith holds the same value, belief in something is there.

I hope this explains it all. But heck, I'm just trying to grasp the meaning of dark matter and of energy and of some of the theories floating around on anything. Remember, i got on this wagon when it was stated that the known universe as we see it is only 4%, everything else is dark stuff. -----Willy Happy

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(NT) Of course
by Diana Forum moderator / July 28, 2012 1:22 PM PDT
In reply to: Allow me to explain...
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(NT) By cheap you mean 'efficient user of resources' I think.
by drpruner / August 6, 2012 7:58 AM PDT
In reply to: Allow me to explain...
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"He/She" ???!!!
by drpruner / August 6, 2012 7:57 AM PDT

Diana, you gonna burn! (since Dragon has gone underground.) Happy

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I've noted often that
by drpruner / August 6, 2012 7:51 AM PDT

"something is found that it leads to some conclusions and/or further along a line of thinking ... [often] straight to mind-boggling"
Either evolution or God is smarter than we are. Happy
BTW I think "Gog" s/b "God", right? Gog is a bad guy, in the book. Ezekiel 38, "And you must say, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "Here I am against you, O Gog, you head chieftain of Meshech and Tubal ..."

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"God seems determined to remain hidden"
by drpruner / August 6, 2012 7:55 AM PDT
In reply to: The deal is fields.

Nope, just the opposite. He doesn't give us much on science, but on the important stuff- life and death- he's very open.
Amos 3:6, If a horn is blown in a city, do not also the people themselves tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city, is it not also Jehovah who has acted? For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.
Later,
John 1:18, No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. [written years after the death of Jesus]
About 1500 pages in most editions, but worth the time.

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