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Hey Dan - why the sudden desire to belittle Christians?

by Bill Osler / September 15, 2004 10:30 AM PDT

Or maybe it's not so sudden.

I've noticed a significant number of posts that, taken as a whole, can be fairly interpreted as a systematic effort to ridicule the beliefs of conservative Christians.

You have pointed out that there are various examples of absurdity or hypocrisy exhibited by various Christians in various places.

What of it? I am not aware of any group of humans that truly exhibits verbal consistency. Hypocrisy is a vice found in all human groups.

Are you also going to belittle the atheists who try to bargain with God on their deathbeds?

Are you going to belittle the atheists who act as if there were some objective basis for morality at the same time they reject the only real basis for objective truth?

You obviously are not going to give me a serious answer to the questions I'm posing. I suppose that the point is to emphasize that your tactics are both obvious and rather silly. A lot of us are used to having our faith ridiculed, and one more critic is not going to matter in the long run.

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Thanks
by David Evans / September 15, 2004 11:31 AM PDT

Right on the mark, and well said.

DE

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His threads on religion do make one think, don't they?
by RB2D2 / September 15, 2004 11:45 AM PDT

That may be the main reason he starts them.

Good for Dan.

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Not really, ...
by Bill Osler / September 15, 2004 12:17 PM PDT

I've seen enough hypocrisy among various religious adherents as well as their critics that further examples don't really add much to the database.

It is mildly annoying to see the continued jabs show up in print, but by itself that is inconsequential. My primary reaction is dismay about the fact that so many times it is the misguided actions of nominal Christians that have proved to be the most potent source of ammunition for skeptics.

I do, however, believe that if similar posts were directed at the faithful adherents of various other religious perspectives (Islam, Judaism, atheism, whatever) there would be more "hue and cry". The posts just illustrate the fact that the "tolerance" and "diversity" so many people on the left loudly proclaim only apply to non-Christians. Even so, that is hardly a new lesson and does not really require much thought to acknowledge or observe.

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Re: Not really, ...
by Mandy Smit / September 15, 2004 12:53 PM PDT
In reply to: Not really, ...

"The posts just illustrate the fact that the "tolerance" and "diversity" so many people on the left loudly proclaim only apply to non-Christians."

This as narrow a view of the left as you are proposing the left has of the right. The truth is, many on the left are more leery of some tactics by practioneres on the rabid right for good reason.

Take abortion for example. How many left nuts are bombing Christian houses of worship - in this country - as contrast to how many what's his name Eric Ruedolph's are wiping out law-abiding doctors or clinics providing LAWFUL medical proceedures protected by Roe v. Wade?

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I haven't kept a tally ...
by Bill Osler / September 16, 2004 12:51 PM PDT
In reply to: Re: Not really, ...

There are people on the left using the same violent tactics as those on the right. There are possibly more violent protesters in the abortion debate on the political right than on the left, but I really do not know either way. The violent activists from the left usually choose other issues. In any event, I think we would do well to avoid that kind of ad hominem attack coming from either side. Do you want me to lump you in with the folks from PETA or the more extreme environmental groups merely because your politics are (apparently) somewhat left of center?

I won't try to defend either the political right or the political left. I'm skeptical of both extremes and not willing to fully endorse either perspective.

As to the question of my attitude toward the "diversity mavens", I will just observe that caricature and hyperbole are time honored tactics in discourse.

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(NT) (NT) Just watch this thread grow and see who posts the most.
by RB2D2 / September 15, 2004 2:21 PM PDT
In reply to: Not really, ...
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Re: Hey Dan - why the sudden desire to belittle Christians?
by Mandy Smit / September 15, 2004 12:00 PM PDT

"A lot of us are used to having our faith ridiculed, and one more critic is not going to matter in the long run."

Why should it matter to you in the sort term then? Is it your desire to convert the heathen or the person who sounds to be devoid of God? I'm curious about your intent to prove Dan disingenuous.

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I'm not really attempting to prove anything ...
by Bill Osler / September 15, 2004 12:07 PM PDT

Dan's posts are proof enough of his intent. I'm just making sure he knows how silly I think his efforts are.

The choice was basically to ignore the posts or to reply. I chose to acknowledge the pattern lest other readers think that silence indicates either successful intimidation or some sort of tacit admission of guilt.

Furthermore, I chose to post as a new thread because I preferred to let the various threads he started die their own natural deaths rather than posting a reply and bumping one or more of them back up to the top.

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Re: I'm not really attempting to prove anything ...
by Mandy Smit / September 15, 2004 12:28 PM PDT

"I chose to acknowledge the pattern lest other readers think that silence indicates either successful intimidation or some sort of tacit admission of guilt."

First of all Dr. Osler, thanks you for deeming my meager atttemt to make sense of this in your face thread.

God knows that Christains have their share of attrocites. If you intent it to silence Dan in attempts to show utter hypocricy of many Christians that won't wash in an "open" forum such as this.

Sterile instruments to thee oh wise one.

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Dr. Bill asked eminently reasonable questions, and has
by Kiddpeat / September 15, 2004 12:54 PM PDT

every right to state his observations and views. Why are you trying to stifle his comments which are mild indeed?

I think he's absolutely correct that similar attacks against other religions would be roundly condemned.

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With all due respects, Kiddpeat ..
by RB2D2 / September 15, 2004 1:03 PM PDT

I think the Muslim religion has been pretty well discussed here, which is understandable under the circumstances, and I don't think anyone condemned the discussion. However, on the other hand, when a Muslim attempted to clarify some comments she was met with rocks. We could have probably learned a lot from her.

I don't think she is going to stick her neck out on that subject any more

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That's true, Islam has been discussed, and people have
by Kiddpeat / September 15, 2004 1:17 PM PDT

bent over backward to avoid criticizing it unfairly. Some direct questions were asked, but there has been no pattern of sniping. There has certainly not been this pattern of condemning it, read hyprocrasy, by using what Dr. Bill rightly referred to as nominal Christians.

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Re: That's true, Islam has been discussed, and people have
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / September 15, 2004 2:07 PM PDT

Hi, KP.

And in the messages I've read Dan isn't criticizing Christianity, but rather those who call themselves Christians but don't live out the values Christ preached. It's like Calvinism, which was a complete perversion of Christianity in claiming that material wealth shws special favor from God. Find THAT view anyplace in the Gospels!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Dave, as seems the case so often, you would probably
by Kiddpeat / September 16, 2004 9:29 AM PDT

be much more ahead of the game if you avoided posting on topics where you lack understanding. Can you tell me where Calvin said 'material wealth shws special favor from God'?

It wouldn't be a little bias directed at one of the reformers would it?

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Re: Dave, as seems the case so often, you would probably
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / September 16, 2004 1:38 PM PDT

Hi, KP.

From http://mr_sedivy.tripod.com/rena6.html, which exactly mirrors what I was taught about Calvinism in HS:
>>He emphasized salvation through predestination, chosen at birth to be saved. Since God knows everything, he knows at conception if someone will go to heaven or hell. This will show up in the way a person lives and prospers... Calvin thought materialism and wealth were good. To Calvin, material wealth on earth meant salvation... <<

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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(NT) (NT) Jonathan Edwards, anyone? LOL
by Diane Harrison / September 16, 2004 3:17 PM PDT
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Remember: All generalizations are false ...
by Bill Osler / September 17, 2004 7:21 AM PDT

While there is some truth in that caricature of Calvinism, there is also a good bit of distortion.

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It's probably not a good idea to get your knowledge
by Kiddpeat / September 18, 2004 12:11 AM PDT

of theology from a high school term paper. You are likely to be missing a few details and nuances.

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Re: It's probably not a good idea to get your knowledge
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / September 18, 2004 1:02 PM PDT

Hi, KP.

I didn't get it from the term paper -- I got it from what I was taught in high school history (in both public and Catholic school -- I ended up repeating history because it was a junior high subject in the public JHS, and a HS subject in the Jesuit HS I attended). That happened to be the first article (of many) that popped up on a Google search. I placed out of College history by getting a "5" (the top score) in the Advanced Placement exam.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I suggest that, if you want an understanding of Calvin,
by Kiddpeat / September 18, 2004 4:40 PM PDT

you read Calvin. If that's too ambitious, you may want to consider a book written by someone who has seriously studied Calvin. Your sources weren't likely to understand him very well. Calvin, IMO, had a huge influence on the development of Europe and the US after the reformation. You might want to find out what it was.

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About Islam, something Ive wondered
by Dragon / September 28, 2004 11:59 AM PDT

Since Muhammad was illiterate, it makes me wonder who was with him who could read. Seems to me they could have been the power behind this man.

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According to history
by James Denison / September 28, 2004 2:43 PM PDT

There was a young Christian captive that gave him most of his insights, but then his latter utterances were completely to justify his own desires.

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Re: clarify some comments
by jonah jones / September 16, 2004 6:31 AM PDT

excuse me? where were you when CL 'declined to comment' on the actions of his 'muslim brothers'?

when he 'declined to condemm' the barbaric actions of (in this case) muslim scumbag terrorists?

the saying is "if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out"...in cls' case it should say "if my brothers actions offend me, i will ignore (but not deplore) them"

# We could have probably learned a lot from her#
oh yes? how to 'hate by numbers' maybe...

#I don't think she is going to stick her neck out on that subject any more#
thankful for small mercies!


.

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Re: clarify some comments
by James Denison / September 16, 2004 4:38 PM PDT

Since CL has claimed to be a Muslim woman, is that too surprising? Considering the conditions that such women labor under in that "faith" it's hardly surprising they might be reluctant to speak out against the atrocities of those who oppress them as women.

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Re: CL has claimed to be a Muslim woman
by jonah jones / September 16, 2004 8:31 PM PDT

izzat so?

where exactly did that happen James?

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Re: clarify some comments
by reptar / September 16, 2004 9:40 PM PDT

There are Christian denominations which do not accept female clergy. Christianity has fractured into so many brands in the marketplace that you can find examples of almost anything in terms of belief, even though most Christians would not hold the same opinion.

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Re: clarify some comments
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / September 16, 2004 10:33 PM PDT

I claim many things...and evidences showed that I can do what I say I can.

Some people find pleasure in the gender guessing game, others are obsess with the idea of Muslim Terrorist. Am I really a Muslim, a man, a woman, a lesbian, gay, transveste, a kid on the block, an old fart, what am I?

You'll never know would you (generally speaking)? Just as I wouldn't know from what left over you (general speaking) are made with. Do I really care?

If you think you (generally speaking) know me, you wouldn't be playing tricks with your mind. You'd be in my INBOX and not in my LITTER BOX.

Speak out AGAINST athrocities to women? Well, since people around here are having trouble defining my gender (I have no reason to speak for any gender.? HAHAHHAHAA). Speak out to whom anyways? What is this, "Talk back trash"? <CHUCKLES>

CL usually don't waste much time in responding to obnoxious, stupid IDIOTS. And when he/she does falls into the mouse trap, *SNAPS!*, down the devil's ditch he/she fell with them. Angels, Devils and Weasel Witches (red, white, blue, green, black, yellow) --- play them all. HAHAHAHHA.

Don't you just love SE?
:
:
:
:
Your paperback rider,
CL

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What a lovely proof of your superiority to call members here
by Diane Harrison / September 16, 2004 10:50 PM PDT

"obnoxious, stupid IDIOTS." So good to know that you consider others to belong in your "litterbox,." and that discourse by others is considered by you to be "Talk back trash."

Personal attacks on ANY individual seldom engender confidence in the person doing the attacking, and indeed undermine claims of professed superiority as well as violating the TOS. If you had a point, other than to be further obsfucate your position while being highly insulting to others, it was lost in the cryptic verbiage and the use of third person to refer to yourself.

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You're message is much shorter this time...
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / September 16, 2004 11:09 PM PDT
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Insulting the mods too, hmm?
by Diane Harrison / September 17, 2004 12:13 AM PDT

I gather you think you are insulting me also, but your thought process is highly misguided and the content is no less juvenile for the attempted insults. If that is to be your sole contribution, rancor and attempts at dissention in here, perhaps your time would be better spent elsewhere.

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