Speakeasy forum

Praise

Heritage, not hate. He understands it.

by James Denison / December 3, 2011 9:28 PM PST
Good for him. Many just like him fought and died under the flag.

Picture

Thomas, who says he prefers to be called black rather than
African-American, adds that he believes the Confederate flag is a sign
of Southern pride, and not racism.

"When I look at this flag, I don't see racism. I see respect, Southern
pride," Thomas said. "This flag was seen as a communication symbol"
during the Civil War, he added. "I've been getting a lot of support from
people. My generation is interested in freedom of speech."
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Who are we to judge anyway
by Steven Haninger / December 3, 2011 10:16 PM PST

None of us experienced those times or the debates that led up to conflict. Each of us learned from those who taught us by giving to us what they wanted us to read. We could not get the whole story and view it with the perspective of those who were a part of it. We've no right to trash anyone for thinking differently than another.

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Good point, Steven...
by J. Vega / December 5, 2011 6:35 AM PST

Good point, sometimes its best to consider things in the light of the times. According to the 1860 Census fewer than 385,000 individuals owned slaves. Both whites and free Blacks owned slaves. Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).
Also, according to the1860 census, there were nearly 4.5 million blacks in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Blacks owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free blacks in that city.
I point that out because those numbers are not usually mentioned in standard school history courses, but looking at them can paint a better picture of attitudes at that time and place.

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And why does the race of the slave owner
by Roger NC / December 5, 2011 6:59 AM PST
In reply to: Good point, Steven...

change the institution of slavery? or of it's justification? or of it's importance in the agricultural economy of the southern states?

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Only as regards....
by James Denison / December 5, 2011 10:24 AM PST

...the political concept of "reparations" to long dead people.

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(NT) Which hadn't been bought up yet
by Roger NC / December 5, 2011 10:28 AM PST
In reply to: Only as regards....
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Roger, it does not...
by J. Vega / December 5, 2011 1:35 PM PST

Roger, it does not change or justify it. But it points out that it was not white people that dealt with it. The OP was about attitudes about a symbol (the flag) and about how it may have been considered by some black people in times long past, and some in the present when looked upon in the light of the past.

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Interesting
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / December 4, 2011 4:15 AM PST

I had to delete my first response, saying "god" instead of "good"!

I agree, good for him.

Mark

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Fought and died under the flag.....
by Josh K / December 4, 2011 10:21 PM PST

.....of a bunch of people who went to war against the United States of America rather than set their slaves free.

I believe that would be called "treason" nowadays.

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It wasn't till after the war
by James Denison / December 4, 2011 11:21 PM PST

that any law against secession was established. States had "joined" the "union" previously and just as some states in Europe might contemplate AND be allowed to leave the European "union", the southern states believed they had every right to do so. In fact the law passed after that war was basically an admission by is passage that no such law prevented secession previously, which made the act of Treason one that the USA engaged in rather than the CSA.

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There was more, Josh...
by J. Vega / December 5, 2011 6:16 AM PST

Josh, reasons for the U.S. Civil War were complex, and built up over time. Slavery was just one part of it. For example, there was ill feeling about tariffs, which many in the South felt hurt them especially. One in 1828 resulted in a 50% duty on imports. Eventually it led to Calhoon's idea of "Nullification", which held that it was unconstitutional and Southern states should prevent its execution. This was in South Carolina. This eventually led to the Nullification Act at the State level, which said that attempts to enforce that law would "justify that the State in seceding from the Union, and establishing a separate and independent government". At the same that State legislature ordered the State to prepare for defense:raise arm, and equip as many men as were deemed sufficient to resist the Government to the utmost.
Jackson, the President at the time, said that he would enforce the collection of the revenue, Governor Hayne called for 12,000 volunteers to arm against the Federal forces. In 1833, Jackson sent General Scott and troops to Charleston to stop this. It stopped it, but the that led to an increase in ill feelings. As time rolled on, it developed into the views about State Supremacy and States' Rights. Then Slavery entered into the mix as well as other things and the combination degenerated into outright war. Josh, I don't think it would be accurate if someone were to try to hang the war on the hook of slavery, as the causes were many and complex.

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Doesn't matter
by Josh K / December 5, 2011 8:52 AM PST

They still waged war against the United States. And nowadays, people in Texas want to secede. And yet they claim that they love America and I don't. I'm not the one looking to leave.

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I've heard several times about the treaty
by Roger NC / December 5, 2011 10:27 AM PST
In reply to: Doesn't matter

when Texas joined the US and the special provisions.

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"waged war against"
by James Denison / December 5, 2011 10:30 AM PST
In reply to: Doesn't matter

So now when a war is mostly within one country, it is considered "waged war against" the invader? Wow, what a twist, turning national defense into a "waged war against".

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Nobody invaded, James
by Josh K / December 5, 2011 10:13 PM PST
In reply to: "waged war against"

One half of the US went to war against the other half, in an effort to leave and become another country.

Sometimes I wish the south had won.

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And I
by TONI H / December 6, 2011 3:33 AM PST
In reply to: Nobody invaded, James

think they sometimes feel the same way

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When I lived in Texas....
by Josh K / December 6, 2011 3:53 AM PST
In reply to: And I

....I knew someone who got caught up in that secession stuff. I told him to go ahead and leave if he hates it here that much, but not to expect friendly trade or immigration terms. Wink

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(NT) Why?
by Diana Forum moderator / December 6, 2011 7:53 AM PST
In reply to: Nobody invaded, James
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Because....
by Josh K / December 6, 2011 8:54 PM PST
In reply to: Why?

.....if they had won, they'd be their own country now where people change spouses more often than they change cars, evolution is not taught, global warming does not exist, and people generally go "A LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" whenever the word "science" is brought up, to their hearts' content. Lincoln could have told them, "OK, let the slaves go and then leave if you want."

What would the rest of us be missing out on? NASCAR? Reba McIntyre? I think we'd manage.

Wink

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Criticizing NASCAR are you??
by Steven Haninger / December 7, 2011 1:13 AM PST
In reply to: Because....

Don't let "Jr." let you hear that. Besides, how could you be against anything that constantly turns to the left? Happy

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There would probably be three countries.
by Diana Forum moderator / December 7, 2011 7:36 AM PST
In reply to: Because....

The North, South, and West.

Diana

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I was thinking 4
by James Denison / December 7, 2011 8:37 AM PST

North, South, Middle, and West beyond the Rockies. The demographics, climate, and political is quite different in California, Oregon, and Washington than the middle lower and upper plains states.

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You'll get to see a replay within your lifetime
by James Denison / December 5, 2011 10:32 AM PST
In reply to: Doesn't matter

Except this time it will be in Europe. Read the Lisbon Treaty. Some parts sound like Abraham Lincoln wrote it. The end result will be the same; War.

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