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General discussion

Help!!! Optical viewfinder wanted!

Feb 2, 2011 11:16AM PST

Does anyone know of any Digital HD video camera (under $1800) that comes with an old fashioned optical viewfinder. We do 99.99% of our video outside, hopefully in sunny weather, and the little screens are crappy for this. We have had two Sony video cameras, one an analog and when that went belly-up, we bought a not-wonderful, but usuable digital (ten years ago). We want to upgrade to a better camera, but everything seems to be without an optical viewfinder. The expensive video cams are too big for our purposes/travel requirements. If anyone can help me, I would appreciate it. Even a good quality used video cam with optical viewfinder would be of interest. Thank you.

Discussion is locked

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nice selection...
Feb 2, 2011 1:02PM PST

From the Sony "Handycam" consumer line-up: HDR-HC9, HDR-CX550, HDR-CX700. I don't recommend hard disc drive camcorders, but the HDR-XR550 has a viewfinder. The HDR-FX7 MSRP is slightly more than your budget and possibly too large for your needs.

From the Sony pro line-up: The HVT-HD1000 MSRP is slightly higher than your stated budget and likely too large, HXRMC50U.

From the Canon consumer Vixia HF M41, HF S30, HF S21, HV40.

From the Canon pro line-up: The XA10 is slightly more than your budget.

Since you did not tell us what the old model was exactly, we have no way to know if these are an "upgrade" or not...

Panasonic and JVC may have some to choose from, too.

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You have been very helpful; more help?
Feb 2, 2011 2:24PM PST

The camera that I currently have is, admittedly, old and wasn't a high-end one when purchased. It is a Sony Digital Handycam, 700xdigital zoom Steady Shot. DCR-TRV330 NTSC Memory Stick. I would think that almost anything purchased now would be an upgrade. If you have any more information for me, I would appreciate it. We have gotten little help from our two local camera stores, Camera World and Ritz Photo. You've given me more info now than I've had in the last several visits to camera stores. They keep saying that "no one" wants an optical viewfinder anymore.

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happy to help
Feb 2, 2011 10:05PM PST

if we knew what you use the camcorder for... It depends what features you need as opposed to those the manufacturers (and retailers) force-feed you. Many consumer users found the LCD panels "good enough" to use when capturing video so the removal of the viewfinder was a cost-cutting (margin improving) measure. Same with a mic jack, manual audio control, and in Sony's case, removing the infrared emitter form the low-end for NightShot mode.

What more information/help are you looking for?

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Chasing trains!
Feb 3, 2011 12:33AM PST

The video camcorder is used outdoors, for distances of 30 or 40 feet away to 1/2 mile or more. Always action (movement) shots of trains, so decent sound and good telephoto is appreciated. No people pictures. Not much low-level light shooting is done unless it is inside a railroad roundhouse or something of that nature. Since pacing a moving train is sometimes a lucky shot, having a wind reduction sound capability would be nice. I realize that having all this AND an optical viewfinder in a small package at a low-end cost (under $1500), is asking a lot nowadays. Our current TRV330 weighs 2 1/4 pounds so we'd like to keep the weight (and size) at no more than that. (That's with battery.) I have tried to check out some of the suggestions you have made, and will keep at it. Much of what the specs say is a bit confusing for us, but it is certainly a start. I just wish any of our local camera stores had these in stock so we could really see and feel these models. The TRV330 meets most of our requiremeents; it just doesn't have the pixel strength to have the clearest imaging in some situations. Again, thanks for your help. We have dragged our cameras to Europe, China, Australia, S. America, and they have held up fine. But, this is all for our own use, not commerical or anything of that nature.

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Using your budget as a guide,
Feb 3, 2011 2:32AM PST

I think you have a healthy choice - whether or not you can touch them at a store is a different issue. A few "clarifications", if you don't mind:

* The DCR-TRV330, Digital8 tape format, records high quality standard definition video (480 horizontal lines of video resolution) in NTSC "DV" format. This is pretty much identical to digital video recorded to miniDV tape. Connect a firewire cable to the camcorder's 4-pin DV port (i.LINK) and computer's firewire port with a firewire cable, put the camcorder in Play mode and import the video at a low-compression 25 mbps data stream.

* "700xdigital zoom": Digital zoom should be disabled. Nice marketing (bigger must be better), but can cause captured video to appear blurry, especially at higher zoom levels. At worst, use no more than 1.5x optical zoom amount if digital zoom is required. Better to disable it and be done with it.

* "decent sound": At very high audio levels, any camcorder's built-in manual audio control can be overwhelmed. The result can be muddy audio, and audio spikes can cause static to be recorded. No post production can fix this muddy or "peaked" audio. Loud audio at low frequencies can cause enough vibrations to cause hard disc drive camcorder's to stop recording to the hard disc. This is a protection mechanism. When the audio source is very far away, the camcorder mics have no idea what they should be listening to - or for. The built-in auto mic gain will record everything. They cannot "filter" like human ears (+ brain) can. It is possible to use an external mic closer to the audio source - in this case, that could be a challenge. Too many variables and VERY long discussion on defining "decent sound". We can revisit if needed.

* "Not much low-level light shooting is done unless...": If you NEED it - even once - then you need it. In this case, how about indoor video lights? Most consumer cams cannot do well in low light because the small lenses and imaging chips just can't get there. The alternative is big lenses and imaging chips. If small camcorder foot print is required, then we're stuck.

* Wind reduction: most consumer camcorders have a "wind reduction" mode. Check the menu selections in the camcorder manual. Electronic wind reduction is OK... The real trick is creating a dead-air space beteen the mic and the audio source so the wind does not blow over the mic. There are a few companies that make "fuzzies" to fit different camcorders - including consumer cams. Rykote is one. I have fuzzies for my HDR-FX1 and HDR-HC1 built-in mics (in addition to "dead cats" for external mics).

The Canon HV40 and Sony HDR-HC9 are miniDV tape based camcorders capable of capturing DV standard def and HDV high definition video. The Sony HDR-CX550 and Canon HF S200 are flash memory based camcorders that can capture very compressed AVCHD format MTS files. AVCHD compressed video is more of a resource hog (in computers) than HDV. A single 60 minute MiniDV tape can hold up to 63 minutes of HDV forma video. Flash memory cards come in different sizes - and Class 4 or faster are required to captured high quality AVCHD-compressed video. High compression and fast action don't get along too well. To get big zoom, the best you can do is to add a tele-lens (screw mount mating the camera's "lens filter" mount). From the camcorder manufacturers, these are usually double the effective zoom for those far-away shots. If you need to get even closer, rather than turning on the camcorder's digital zoom, you may be better off using the zoom capability in whatever video editor you are using. Either way, it is digital zoom... High definition consumer cams capture at 1080 horizontal lines of video resolution, so you'll be clearer right off the bat.

Since we don't know where you are, we don't know if there are other resources for shopping. Fry's Electronics and sometimes even Radio Shack will have models the camera stores you mentioned do not display. You probably won't find the miniDV tape cams in stores. bhphotovideo is a great online resource...

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Oops, we have an iMac computer.
Feb 3, 2011 4:17AM PST

I've been looking at reviews for a lot of the camcorders you have mentioned and they all sound as if they will work for us, except that several have user reviews that say they either don't work with a Mac computer or it is really difficult to use. We have an iMac 20" desktop with Ilife - would that make a difference? If we can't use the camcorder to download to the iMac, it isn't worthwhile getting. (Does anything get less complicated, rather than more? Happy Thank you. Again.

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Which 20" iMac?
Feb 3, 2011 9:43AM PST

As I recall, there was a plastic-cased G5 PPC version and a machined aluminum Intel chip CPU.

The G5 iMac can work with the HDV (HV40 and HDR-HC9) with some "expectations" we need to set with you.

The Intel chip iMac can work with the HDV or ACVHD camcorders - with some "expectations" to be set with the AVCHD cams.

In the upper left, under the Apple, select "About this Mac" and let us know what the CPU and RAM numbers are...

Also, in the Applications folder, click once on "iMovie", under File, select "Get Info" - and let us know what version iMovie it is.

Over the past 7 years, I have successfully gotten video from flash memory, hard disc drive, digital tape and DVD camcorders from Sony, Canon and Panasonic into various Macs (G4 through CoreDuo Intel CPU). While many report issues getting the video in, I have not yet encountered any I could not resolve.

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Which iMac?
Feb 3, 2011 2:02PM PST

The processor is 2.66 Ghs Intel Core 2 Duo
Memory is 2 GB 1067 MHz DdR3
iMovie is "last modified" 9.0.2 1/22/2011 5.23 PM

We are kind of looking at the Canon HFS221. There are two shops in town (btw, I'm in Portland, OR) that actually have some in stock. I am trying to convince my husband that the place that has it for sale for $1200 with a $200 rebate (ending up at $999.00) might be a better deal than buying it at Best Buy for $949.00. The first place is a well-known and experienced small camera shop with expertise. Best Buy sells stuff, but with no real expertise in its salespersons. Also, we will need a second battery-pack, and I think it will be a better deal at the independent shop. (The reason I didn't first check out this place was that it sells Canon, not Sony, and we had always gone with Sony videocams previously. You opened my eyes to other options.)

AS long as our iMac will deal comfortably with the Canon, I think we can live with it. We just have always (twice) had Sony camcorders, so I feel a bit traitorous. I wish I had the time to wait for further advances in these camcorders, but our big "trip of a lifetime" has us leaving on 2/28, so we do have a crunch time.

Again, thanks for you continued help.

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Sounds like your iMac
Feb 3, 2011 10:26PM PST

is just fine - though I would strongly suggest getting the RAM to 4 gig. Mine is the same - with the 24" screen.

I agree with your concept of buying from a local shop that is owned by your neighbor.

I had a Canon HF S100 (my son now uses it). I had not used it in conjunction with iMovie, but AVCHD compressed video works with iMovie '08 and newer.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3290
The HF S221 is not listed - too new. My opinion: It *should* be just fine.

Two possible methods... connect the camcorder to the computer with the included USB cable or equivalent and with the camcorder in "PC" mode,
a) launch iMovie and capture the video;
or
b) when the camcorder memory mounts to the desktop, copy the AVCHD compressed MTS video files to the computer; launch a transcoder like MPEG StreamClip
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/video/mpegstreamclip.html
there are others - convert the video files to a file format iMovie likes (MOV, MP4, DV), quit the transcoer, launch iMovie and drag the converted files to the sequence pane.

If you are feeling "adventurous" and don't mind a little learning curve and additional expense, FinalCut Express is a LOT more powerful than iMovie - just connect the camcorder to the computer, launch FCE and Log and Capture" the video from the camcorder (or do the file copy/transcode process if you want).

How long do you want to keep the original video (archive)... what are your storage/archive plans and what do you plan to watch the video with/on when the editing is done?

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Camcorder for filming trains...
Aug 5, 2011 10:23PM PDT

I too will be using a Camcorder for filming trains. Having previously done this in the early 1990s on a Sony V900 video camcorder, I need manual itis, shutter speed and focus plus an external mic jack.

Having read reviews and watched YouTube footage of Canon Legria HF S21 and Panasonic 700 and 900 series camcorders, I have narrowed the search down to a Panasonic HDC-HS900 because of its 220GB internal hard disc. However, I have heard the beginning of the disc wears out because of continually over-writing this part. Is this merely an old wives tale?

Related to the above, would I be better purchasing the Panasonic TM900 with 32GB built-in flash memory and buying lots of memory cards to store segments of railway footage? Any guide to the best purchase would be gratefully recieved.

Larry

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Is this merely an old wives tale?
Aug 7, 2011 2:09AM PDT

I'm going with yes. Current HDD's do not exhibit such wear. They do suffer damage from drops so the advice is to not drop the units.
Bob

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I agree with Bob
Aug 7, 2011 4:35AM PDT

Old wives tale on the "wearing out the hard drive" part.

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Train noise affecting hard drive heads...
Aug 13, 2011 1:06AM PDT

Thank you for your reply. I would be using a directional mic, which would be picking up sound from some distance away to suit a telephoto scene and so there would be plenty of sound thats for sure, although vibration was always nil when I used to film with vieo in Britain 1989-97. Would the heads lift if there was too much sound?

As I will not be renewing my PC until November at the earliest, I need to store whatever I take between now and then on either the camcorders internal disc or flash memory.

coachmann

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Viewfinder in the search parameters?
Nov 26, 2011 12:49AM PST

I'm actually shocked that an "electronic viewfinder" isn't included in the "special features" section of the search parameters. It is a pretty important element for those of us who shoot a great deal of outdoor footage.