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Haven't heard any comments good or bad on Good Night

Apr 16, 2006 2:39AM PDT

and Good Luck here. Watched it on DVD last night, and really enjoyed it, though it portrays a dark episode in US post war history.

It covers a few months in early 1953 (we didn't get our television til Christmas that year) and is wonderfully evocative in black and white, since that's how we used to see everything on the tube anyway.

Unfortunately it comes in on Welch's speech, the attorney for the US Army, just after he makes one of the great assaults in Senate history. When one of Welch's firms younger attorneys is attacked by McCarthy as a member of a Communist organization (allegation like so many made by McCarthy untrue, and unfounded) Welch asks "Where did you get this information?" McCarthy waffles and says its not important where he got the informantion but Welch continues "Well did you get it from an informant and if so who is that informant? McCarthy continues to waffle, and says no it didn't come from an informant. Welch then asks "Well, did it come from a Pixie?" McCarthy looks both baffled and amused and asks what a Pixie is, while Roy Cohn tries to stop him from pursuing the issue, Welch replies "Well Senator, I think I would describe a Pixie as a second cousin to a fairy!" at which the smile falls from McCarthy's face, and Roy Cohn, the object of the comment, looks completely stunned. From that point on we move into the better known territory of Welch explaining that the young man had come to him and had said he belonged to a Lawyers League which McCarthy and nobody else had named as a Communist Front Organization. After that we get to the "Have you no shame, Senator, Have you at long last lost all traces of decency" speech which many of us know nearly by heart.

And yes Bobby Kennedy is visible in a couple of shots sitting at the end of the hearing table.

Murrow himself lost his program almost immediately after the interview, and the relationship, once very close, between Murrow and Wm Paley the head of CBS never recovered though Murrow remanined VP as head of the News Division.

I think its a terrific movie, and deserves a viewing for its content, and another for the commentary track which explains why George Clooney made (and co-wrote) the movie (his dad was a newsman during this period).

Rob

Discussion is locked

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Just a few quotations fromWikipedia on Sen Joseph R McCarthy
Apr 17, 2006 10:09AM PDT

"Following the lead of Sen. Robert Taft, McCarthy lobbied for the commutation of death sentences handed to a group of Waffen-SS soldiers convicted of war crimes for their involvement in the 1944 Malmedy massacre of American prisoners of war. Taft had been critical of the proceedings because of serious allegations of misconduct during the interrogations that led to the confessions, as well as his objections of Soviet involvement in the trial.[11]"

Nevertheless, he campaigned to let those responsible for wiring the hands together and shooting in the back of the head 72 American Prisoners of War. Certainly a boon to the American people, and perhaps an indication of where his sympathies really lay.
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"McCarthy's national profile rose meteorically after his Lincoln Day speech on February 9, 1950, to the Republican Women's Club of Wheeling, West Virginia. McCarthy's words in the speech are a matter of some dispute, as they were not reliably recorded at the time, the media presence being minimal. It is generally agreed, however, that he produced a piece of paper which he claimed contained a list of known communists working for the State Department. McCarthy is quoted to have said: "I have here in my hand a list of 57 people that were known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party, and who, nevertheless, are still working and shaping the policy of the State Department."[10]"
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Sec. State James "Byrnes said State Department security investigators had declared 284 persons unfit to hold jobs in the department because of communist connections and other reasons, but that only 79 had been discharged, leaving 205 still on the State Department's payroll. McCarthy told his Wheeling audience that while he did not have the names of the 205 mentioned in the Byrnes letter, he did have the names of 57 who were either members of or loyal to the Communist Party. McCarthy stated he referred to 57 "known Communists;" the number 205 was referring to the number of people employed by the State Department who, for various security reasons related not merely to loyalty but also to issues such as drunkenness and incompetence, should not have been.
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Democratic Senator Millard Tydings "told McCarthy: "You are in the position of being the man who occasioned this hearing, and so far as I am concerned in this committee you are going to get one of the most complete investigations ever given in the history of this Republic, so far as my abilities will permit.""
"After 31 days of hearings...the Tydings Committee officially labeled McCarthy's charges a "fraud" and a "hoax", said the individuals on his list were neither communists nor pro-communist, and concluded the State Department had run an effective security program."
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Despite the falseness of the claims "Of the 110 names McCarthy gave to the Tydings subcommittee," [no more than] "62 were at the time employed by the State Department. The Tydings Committee cleared all the personnel, but within one year the State Department's Loyalty Security Board instigated proceedings against 49 of the 62. By the end of 1954, 81 of those on McCarthy's list had left the government either by dismissal or resignation." That is they were hounded from their positions without sufficient reason at least according to the preceding Senate Commission.
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"One of McCarthy's higher-profile targets was Gen. George C. Marshall. McCarthy and Sen. William E. Jenner of Indiana accused Marshall of treason. Eisenhower wrote a speech in which he included a spirited defense of Marshall, but he was later convinced to remove this passage." This destroyed the friendship between Eisenhower and Marshall. Eisenhower knew as well as anyone and better than most the loyalty and service Marshall had done for the United States.
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"Several members of the U.S. Senate opposed McCarthy well before 1953. One example is U.S. Senator Margaret Chase Smith, a Maine Republican (and the only woman in the Senate at the time) who delivered her "Declaration of Conscience" on June 1, 1950, criticizing both the Executive and Legislative branches' use of smear tactics without mentioning McCarthy or anyone else by name.... Six other Republican Senators, Wayne Morse, Irving M. Ives, Charles W. Tobey, Edward John Thye, George Aiken and Robert C. Hendrickson joined her in condemning McCarthy's tactics. Vermont Senator Ralph E. Flanders also condemned McCarthy on the floor of the Senate and he introduced the resolution to censure him."
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"On July 30, 1954, Senator Ralph Flanders introduced a resolution accusing McCarthy of conduct "unbecoming a member of the United States Senate." Flanders was no fan of McCarthy, as exemplified by a statement to the Senate two months earlier that said McCarthy's "anti-Communism so completely parallels that of Adolf Hitler as to strike fear into the hearts of any defenseless minority.""
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"As David Lawrence pointed out in an editorial in the June 7, 1957 issue of U.S. News & World Report, other senators had accused McCarthy of lying under oath, accepting influence money, engaging in election fraud, making libelous and false statements, practicing blackmail, doing the work of the communists for them, and engaging in a questionable "personal relationship" with Roy Cohn and David Schine, but they were not censured for acting "contrary to senatorial ethics" or for impairing the "dignity" of the Senate."

After his censure, McCarthy continued to work in his senatorial duties for another two and a half years. Some contend that he was a changed man during this time, but "to insist, as some have, that McCarthy was a shattered man after the censure is sheer nonsense," said Brent Bozell, one of his aides at the time. "His intellect was as sharp as ever. When he addressed himself to a problem, he was perfectly capable of dealing with it." Just in case you ever wondered where Brent Bozell came from before he became a Right Wingnut.
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Journalist Richard Rovere (1959) wrote:

"There have been descriptions of him as having spent his last years in an unbroken alcoholic stupor. These descriptions are inaccurate. He had always been a heavy drinker, and there were times in those seasons of discontent when he drank more than ever. But he was not always drunk. He went on the wagon (for him this meant beer instead of whiskey) for days and weeks at a time. The difficulty toward the end was that he couldn't hold the stuff. He went to pieces on his second or third drink. And he did not snap back quickly."

It was reported that McCarthy suffered from cirrhosis and was frequently hospitalized for alcoholism. Numerous eyewitnesses, including Senate aide George Reedy and journalist Tom Wicker, have reported finding him alarmingly drunk in the Senate.... He died of acute hepatitis in Bethesda Naval Hospital".

Yes this is a deliberately selective post. There are countervailing opinions, which are well known, and come from people like William Rusher who was a friend and an associate of McCarthy's. They are in my opinion a smokescreen for a man who did more damage to the United States than putative Communist influence (if it existed which I doubt) ever did.

Any biography will tell you the same thing, and any history holds McCarthyism up as a black chapter in American life, with substantial evidence.

Rob

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Yippee skip,
Apr 17, 2006 10:39AM PDT

He was a self serving demagogue that any Liberal leader today would be proud to emulate, doesn?t change the facts of the point

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Right now I'm more worried about ...
Apr 17, 2006 12:25PM PDT

Which conservatives might be wanting to emulate him. They are the ones who hold more political power right now.

Still, what is the point of saying McCarthy was 'right' about some vague accusation when he was wrong about all the particulars? Pretty pathetic notion of 'rightness' IMO.

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I know, the last thing anyone here wants is an endorsement
Apr 18, 2006 1:56AM PDT

from me, but I agree with you entirely Doc.

Best wishes

Rob

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There are no facts to your point. A demagogue by definition
Apr 18, 2006 1:49AM PDT

makes something up out of nothing that he can then use to ride to power. McCarthy had no evidence, he had no names, therefore he had nothing but a baseless accusation.

His accusations are exactly analagous to the Loch Ness Monster. People say there's a monster, but biological surveys have found there isn't enough of a food supply to support even one, let alone a 100 million year lineage of them.

I agree with Dr. Bill.

Rob

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Only if you believe those who caved to his bully tactics
Apr 19, 2006 1:23PM PDT

McCarthy's tactics are like torture, DM -- weak people will tell you what you want to hear, whether it's true or not. For example, in the case of Alger Hiss, a search of KGB files after the fall of the Soviet Union showed no evidence that Whitaker Chambers wasn't the one who comitted perjury, though Hiss was the one convicted of it.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Sometimes my memory doesn't let me down.
Apr 17, 2006 4:52AM PDT

"On December 17, 1944 near Malmedy 72 American POWs were killed by members of the First SS Panzer Division. In the spring of 1946 an American military tribunal sitting at Dachau sentenced 43 officers of the SS group to death. But a hue and cry against the sentences arose in the US Senate led by Senator Joseph McCarthy. So in March of 1948, 31 or the death sentences were commuted by the court. In 1951 (the McCarthy era) General Lucius D. Clay reduced the number of death sentences from 12 to 6, John J McCloy, the uS high commissioner in Germany, commuted the remaining sentences to life imprisonment." Within 5 years all were released from prison.

Source William Shirer, A Native's Return.

Rob

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The combined sales ...
Apr 16, 2006 7:40AM PDT

... of all Oscar nominated movies was eclipsed by Chronicles of Narnia. Which, BTW, I haven't yet seen, but that should tell you something.

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(NT) (NT) That people buy movies for their kids?
Apr 17, 2006 5:05AM PDT
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How about all of the potential movie goers who don't even ..
Apr 18, 2006 1:23AM PDT

... have children? Y'know, that all important ratings demographic. There's just not all that much interest in movies that attempt to recreate historical events for the most part. Lots of creative editorializing that it seems most people have little taste for.

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(NT) (NT) I Y O.
Apr 20, 2006 2:04AM PDT
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Not a matter of opinion ...
Apr 21, 2006 2:09AM PDT

... the box office doesn't lie. Good Night has yet to break $35 million total domestic sales. Scary Movie 4 eclipsed that and tacked on several million more opening on Easter weekend.

All I was saying was that was a reason why you haven't heard much about it. Not many people have seen it!

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I guess that's why....
Apr 20, 2006 2:47AM PDT

....Gandhi, Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List all bombed, huh.

Devil

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Who said anything about bombing?
Apr 21, 2006 2:05AM PDT

But Gandhi didn't exactly set the box office on fire -- it ranks 825 of all time at the box office domestically -- Domestic lifetime gross <$53 million (source).
Schindler's List is an exception not a rule, and Saving Private Ryan was based PARTLY on a true story, but not a story most Americans are likely to be familiar with. IOW, it was an "action adventure" film more than a documentary.

To date, Good Night has yet to break $35 million domestic in sales. This is as good a reason as any why not too many people have had much to say about the movie! It's not something a lot of people are really interested in in their "entertainment" is all.

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Raw dollars can be misleading
Apr 21, 2006 5:53AM PDT

Good Night, for example, would most strongly appeal to an older audience -- which isn't the big $$$ demographic for the film industry right now.

For a film like that, you should also look at DVD sales and rentals. A big chunk of that film's target audience is people like me -- parents who can't really get out to the movies much and wait to rent the films they want to see.

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Gimme a break here
Apr 21, 2006 6:05AM PDT

You acknowledge my point when you raise the demographic issue. All I said was there's not a lot of people that interested in the subject of the movie. You agree. That's all I was saying as a reason why Rob hadn't heard much re: the movie. Not a lot of people have seen it! It hasn't been out on DVD for long. It seems to be doing reasonably well on DVD, but probably after the post Oscar "bump" (received by other movies like Memoires and Capote) it will probably fade into relative obscurity.

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I do not agree
Apr 21, 2006 6:17AM PDT

''Not a lot of people'' compared with the target audience for ''Dude, Where's My Car?'' Sure. But there's a difference between finding it hard to make time to go to a movie theater and not being interested. I've been interested in seeing that film since its release, but I knew I'd probably have to wait for it to come out on DVD.

I'm sure you're hoping it will fade into "relative obscurity."

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Not a lot of people is not a lot of people.
Apr 21, 2006 6:26AM PDT

Ticket sales do not lie!

You did agree, you just didn't realize you did. How did all those busy parents find time to go to movies like The Passion of the Christ? (not a children's movie) Or the Wedding Crashers (R-rated) probably not a movie parents dragged the kidlets to!

It's probably the kind of movie that will do better (relatively) in DVD rental than in the theater. But DVD sales will be another disappointment for those like you who hope it becomes a "must see" classic.

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The Passion of the Christ.....
Apr 21, 2006 7:57AM PDT

....benefitted from all the protests against it, and Wedding Crashers was aimed at a younger audience -- that target demographic I was referring to earlier.

There are shades of gray between "Must-see classic" and "obscurity" and I suspect that Good Night will fall somewhere in there.

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That's my point
Apr 21, 2006 9:26AM PDT

Are you being intentionally dense? The subject matter of Good Night just doesn't have broad appeal, at least from an entertainment vehicle POV.

Tell ya what. I'll give Clooney credit for at least getting acting jobs and being in a position to make/direct this movie. Given the low production cost and critical acclaim, there's no denying its success (still limited, however). It's a lot more than his bud Alec can muster Devil

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p.s. You're just way off on Passion
Apr 21, 2006 9:31AM PDT

... it was word of mouth that resulted in its ultimate success. Protests/buzz only go so far. It was a phenomenal success because even with an R rating and subtitles, the subject was of interest to a broad sector of the population.

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FWIW: It has come up before
Apr 16, 2006 11:44AM PDT
Here
IIRC there was also an older thread.
I suspect that most of the members of the forum are more interested in commenting on the sins of liberals past than they are the sins of conservatives past.

While I understand the tendency (I'd rather criticize the drivel poured out by atheists than the drivel poured out by self labeled Christian politicians) it gets tiresome at times. Furthermore, the trend is frightening if Santayana was right: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

It would be refreshing to see some of our dogmatic conservatives offer thoughtful criticism of, for example, Mr. Reagan or Mr. Nixon (or either Mr. Bush) or to see some of our dogmatic liberals do the same for Mr. Clinton or Mr. Carter or Mr. Gore. I'll just keep dreaming for a while. Maybe when whatever I've apparently been smoking wears off I'll come back to reality.
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I'm sorry I missed or forgot about it, and I agree. I'll
Apr 17, 2006 5:08AM PDT

try to work up something cogent on Clinton.

Rob

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IMO Santayana was right, and he did use
Apr 17, 2006 9:09AM PDT

"doomed."

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(NT) (NT) or, "condemned" - either way ...
Apr 17, 2006 9:09AM PDT
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I've seen it both ways, but ...
Apr 17, 2006 12:37PM PDT

According to one source I found this evening, the correct quote is actually:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Of course, until I see it in actual context in one of his writings I'll never be 100% sure.

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That's the way I saw it, too, in
Apr 19, 2006 8:53AM PDT

a forgotten context, but one which I remember trusting. My point, and what got my notice when I first read it, is that he didn't say, ''would repeat'' or ''can repeat''. History shows his word choice was correct. The really horrible stuff is what we ''forget'' and then do again. Sachsenhausen to Kampuchea to Rwanda to ...
That ''Never again'' motto of militant Israelis is just a sick joke IMO; don't they read the papers?

When will evolution put an end to all this?

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So I take it nobody here has seen the movie since we're off
Apr 18, 2006 1:55AM PDT

discussing The Loch Ness Monster of Demagogues, Joseph R. McCarthy.

I thought David Strathairn almost spookily perfect as Murrow, both physically and in his superb delivery. A really enjoyable film for all ages and one that sparks loads of discussions.

Highly reccommended to any non-McCarthyites.

Rob

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I haven't seen it yet....
Apr 18, 2006 2:38AM PDT

...but plan to rent it. One funny note -- they use actual footage of McCarthy rather than having an actor portray him. One friend of my mother's saw the film and commented ''Whoever they got to play McCarthy was amazing! He looked just like him!''

LOL

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This reviewer seemed to think otherwise ...
Apr 18, 2006 3:20AM PDT

... about the movie's content, although he shares your praise for Straitham and the movie making in general.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/06/AR2005100602012.html

Murrow is before my time, but I wonder if the internet had been around at the time if he might not have become the Rather of his time. There apparently has been a need for ''checks and balances'' on the ''mainstream'' media for decades.

I saw Woody Allen's "The Front" so I've reached my quota. Wink As entertainment goes, Good Night is probably at the bottom of my list.