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Good for them in the Ukraine -

by SteveGargini / November 27, 2004 11:38 AM PST
Full state of things at the present time

Ukraine's parliament has declared last Sunday's presidential poll invalid.
Members overwhelmingly backed a motion saying the election result was "at odds with the will of the people".
Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych was declared the winner, but challenger Viktor Yushchenko has alleged fraud and has called for a re-run.
Parliament cannot overturn the result, but its views may carry weight with the supreme court. The court meets on Monday to examine fraud claims.
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Our 'little protester' :-)
by Evie / November 27, 2004 9:38 PM PST

My father-in-law's new wife is from Ukraine. Apparently whole busloads of Ukrainians living in the NE were turned away and not allowed to vote at the NYC Embassy, including her. At the same time, apparently many Russians were allowed to vote in Ukraine itself.

Both my FIL and his wife are very concerned, as is the vast majority of the Ukrainian community here. My FIL went down to demonstrate at the UN yesterday! My husband and I would have joined him had we not had previous plans that could not be changed.

While I'm not much into conspiracy theories, there does seem to be something to the possibility that Yushenko was poisoned or something as his appearance has changed considerably and he has been hospitalized twice.

The general idea I get from listening to coverage and weeding through internet articles with my FIL this past weekend was that this situation will not be resolved without a new election that they feel will go their way if it is not fraudulent. The police have switched allegience to the opposition, and I'm not sure but heard that some of the military is crossing over too. That would be disasterous if there is not a solution to this. Ukrainians have been independent for a decade and are not about to have their country again subordinated to Russia Sad

Evie Happy

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Hoping the best for Ukraine
by James Denison / November 28, 2004 1:55 PM PST

I'd hate to see them fall under Soviet domination again.

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Especially when the voting process was sabotaged
by SteveGargini / November 28, 2004 2:08 PM PST

and apparently Russians were allowed to vote.
Just how unfair could the voting process get?

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Mexicans are voting in US elections.
by James Denison / November 28, 2004 2:17 PM PST

Happening all over the southern states. Motor Voter laws were enacted to make it even easier for voter fraud to occur. Democrats don't seem to give a damn, and the Republicans in those areas don't want to piss them off. Pretty soon many southern states will be like Kosovo became in Serbia, a land taken over by illegal immigration.

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Re: Mexicans are voting in US elections.
by SteveGargini / November 28, 2004 2:40 PM PST

And what's the betting that the Mexicans all vote democrat. Sad
Fortunately it doesn't matter for another 4 years, but Bush should think about cleaning things up in that area if I was him.

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Where did you get the perverse notion that Kosovo
by Ziks511 / November 29, 2004 7:16 AM PST

has been taken over by illegal immigrants. You do know that the component parts of Yugoslavia was part of the Ottoman Empire, taken by conquest in I've forgotten which Century, the ?15th? perhaps, and that large parts of the population were forced to convert to Islam don't you? What did you think they were, refugees from Albania? Albanians all go to Italy. It has the better economy and no nasty Serbs to deal with.

Rob Boyter

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Careful now Rob ...
by Evie / November 29, 2004 8:46 AM PST

... no need to disparage the Serbs because of the actions of a few! Meanwhile as the UN stands by, the retaliation against those innocents that had nothing to do with the war crimes of a few continues Sad

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Where did you get the perverse notion that illegals
by W2X3XP / November 29, 2004 8:28 AM PST

are voting?

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(NT) (NT) Have you been living under a rock??
by Evie / November 29, 2004 8:44 AM PST
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Is there room there for me too?!?!
by W2X3XP / November 29, 2004 11:49 AM PST

K, move over.

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I live in a southern state, and
by Angeline Booher / November 30, 2004 1:54 AM PST

... the Mexicans voting here are naturalized citizens.

My state now allows folks to register to vote at the time of driving licensure/

The requirements to do so are at:


Of course, there are always some who could falsify documents for anything, not just voting, We do have a computer link to the Social Security Administration but your comment gave me the impression that you meant the fraud was wide spread.

IMO, being able to register to vote at the same time is for convenience, I know that we have moved from state to state several times, so had to go to a different location for voter registration.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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".. the Mexicans voting here are naturalized citizens"
by James Denison / November 30, 2004 12:01 PM PST
".. the Mexicans voting here are naturalized citizens.

And what were they before that? Most if not all were "illegal aliens" or non documented immigrants, however you want to look at it. That makes them all criminals as far as I'm concerned. We should NEVER give status to ANYONE who came here illegally.
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Ukrainian Supreme Court a model for our own.
by Ziks511 / November 29, 2004 7:07 AM PST

When confronted with a fraudulent election like Florida 2000 they declared the election invalid.

I can hear the screaming from here and I don't mean in the Ukraine.

Rob Boyter

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Re: Ukrainian Supreme Court a model for our own.
by SteveGargini / November 29, 2004 7:18 AM PST

I have seen secret films on our tv of the sort of things that were happening in the Ukraine, and I don't think there is any comparison between Florida and that place.
Security guards being beaten up during the marxist thugs dirty deads?

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The only fraud in US elections that even comes close ...
by Evie / November 29, 2004 8:28 AM PST

... to resembling the shenanigans in Ukraine is dead people, illegal aliens, etc. voting, and things like almost 100% voter turnout in heavily black communities. Guess who's numbers that skewed upwards?

Evie Happy

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Thanks Evie - I needed your help here
by SteveGargini / November 29, 2004 6:57 PM PST

I am not in the best of shapes to argue with anyone at the moment - I have the flu and feel pretty yuck Sad
Thanks again. Happy

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Lots of fluids Steve ...
by Evie / November 29, 2004 8:39 PM PST

... and feel better!

Things are looking up for Ukraine as Kuchma is even saying a new election may be the only way. After all Ukraine has been through in its history it would be a shame for the country to split.

Evie Happy

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The biggest question is Evie
by SteveGargini / November 30, 2004 5:09 AM PST

can the western half survive financially without the eastern. I would have thought there were plenty of factories and industry to produce exports in the western sector, but then again I don't know personally.
Would things be happier living their own way, separated. They certainly don't appear very friendly together.
I will drink plenty of water to throw the flu off, and thanks for that advise.

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Utter BS ...
by Evie / November 29, 2004 8:24 AM PST

... unless you're talking about calling the election for Gore before all the polls had closed in the Fla. Panhandle.

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Re: Utter BS ... Yes, your comment is!
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / November 30, 2004 12:07 PM PST
In reply to: Utter BS ...

Nonsense, Evie.

The "butterfly" ballot should have been enough to invalidate the Y2k Florida results -- it was unintentional (unlike the "drivers license checks" and other shenangigans that held down voting in minority precincts), but the effect was to disenfranchise thousands and throw the election to Bush. Even Pat Buchanan admitted there was no way he would have gotten that many votes in a Democratic stronghold, and the way the ballot was arranged, it was clear that almost all the miscast votes were meant for Gore. How tragic that the end of the American Century (which is now in full evidence to those with eyes to see) resulted from such a travesty!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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A bit off topic Dave
by SteveGargini / November 30, 2004 9:55 PM PST

Talking about an election that was held 4 years ago in America does nothing to add anything useful to the problem in the Ukraine.
Different people - different country - Marxists -
Strong Russian connection -
So where is the connection Dave?

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You'll have to forgive Dave ...
by Evie / November 30, 2004 10:09 PM PST
In reply to: A bit off topic Dave

... he never really has gotten over the fact that Bush won. It was Rob that brought Florida 2000 into this discussion. Too bad Sad

I'll have to talk to the FIL about the economic question you raised in the other part of the thread. I am unsure where a split would occur if it did, and the distribution of resources in the country. I do know most of their oil is in the east.

Evie Happy

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I guess I was a bit late with my last post - whoops
by SteveGargini / December 1, 2004 3:15 AM PST

I think Russia is very much behind some sort of dirty carryings on with that election result. Apparently, many Russian people were bused in from Russia to place votes, with obviously dodgy voting forms. How is that known? It was secretly filmed.
Plus I heard that a whole bunch of people got out of a coach, voted at one of the voting placed, then got back into the coach and driven to another voting place to vote again.
Russia wants control of the Oil and the pipeline, and it's obviously breaking it's heart to think that the country along with the oil could go westwards. TOUGH.
The oil is a very important part of the economy of the Ukraine, I should think myself, so if the west of the country should lose it, then things would probably be a bit tough. But you will have to have a word with your FIL if this is so.
It's nice to hear that the new government has been voted out, by themselves apparently. So the way is clear for a new election.
I just don't know if the Marxists in the east will ever be able to swallow their pride and join the western part of the country.
I hope everything does work out to the better there.

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Prior to Stalin's imposed famine ...
by Evie / December 1, 2004 3:25 AM PST

... Ukraine was known as the "Breadbasket of Europe". It is a large country that unlike, say, Afghanistan, is richly blessed with nautral resources including agrigable land. Again, I would have to talk to the FIL to get a better feel of how these resources are spread around the country, but I don't think the west is devoid of ecomonically viable options. The problem is mostly the lack of infrastructure for what should be booming industries.

As much as Putin has done good in Russia, he has quietly and somewhat under the radar returned that country to some pre-breakup conditions. The main thing among them being the government owned media that presents only one viewpoint. This is also what happened in Ukraine, with even the private outlets parroting the government line.

I think what is going on in Ukraine is critical not only for their country, but for all of Europe and indeed fledgling democracies around the world. It was kind of neat wearing a nice sweatshirt with the Ukrainian trident (tryzub to class the other day and having a non-Ukrainian recognize it from the news coverage over the weekend.

Things appear to be looking up for a new election. Here's hoping that it is a fair one and Russians aren't allowed to vote.

How are you feeling?

Evie Happy

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Re: Prior to Stalin's imposed famine ...
by SteveGargini / December 1, 2004 10:21 AM PST

Yep! It is a very critical time for the Ukrainians, and their chance for a true democracy.
In the days when the Ukraine was part of the soviet bloc, the russians would have sent tanks into the country to suppress the opposition.
I hope to God that that doesn't happen this time.
Russia using the break up of the government as an excuse to impose a heavy marxist hand over the land.
I don't think Putin would do a thing like that, well I hope not. Sad

My flu - Much better thanks - I have got most of my strength back, and the feverishness has departed.
I should be even better tomorrow.
Quite a few people living in this area have gone down with the same thing. It comes on like a cold but has lots of flu symptoms. Perhaps it is a type of flu.
Thanks for thinking of me anyway.

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Re: Utter BS ... Yes, your comment is!
by Evie / November 30, 2004 10:12 PM PST

The butterfly ballot has no relevance to the fraud in the Ukrainian election.

Try as you might, there is simply no comparison unless you want to talk about felons illegally voting or those that double voted in Fla and NY. Oh, I do suppose you could draw an analogy to those like my FIL's wife who were not allowed to vote by absentee ballot and Gore's deliberate attempt to suppress the votes of the men and women of our military that protect your freedom but ...

Evie Happy

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