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General discussion

General OP on CA fires.

Nov 15, 2018 6:40AM PST

I'll start.
Probably some New Mexicans on the lines out there. The Native pueblos have their own fire teams for wilderness fires, for obvious reasons. They also 'have shovel, will travel'. Zuni people especially are ready. Their cops even take ownership of Interstate problems inside their land.

Discussion is locked

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How to put this. Fed owned forests.
Nov 15, 2018 8:45AM PST

From memory the forests in CA are 98% federally owned so the management is by the fed. I heard something about bad management by CA but the forests are not owned or managed by CA.

Very strange times.

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It's that way in a lot of the West
Nov 15, 2018 2:30PM PST
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(NT) Yes, indeed.
Nov 16, 2018 5:04AM PST
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Not quite ALL the Truth
Nov 16, 2018 12:30AM PST


Pine bark beetle invasion. Both federal and state "endangered species" laws requiring dead trees be left in forested areas. Special permits required to remove any of them, and more.
Just take a look at why, and maybe have an wry laugh at the last sentence about "storing" the carbon. Uh, I think it's all "unstored" now, wouldn't we say? These idiots talk like they live back East where lots of rainfall keeps that from happening here as much.

'Dead trees are vital components of the forest ecosystem and should be removed only when necessary. A dead tree near a home, power line or other infrastructure is downright dangerous, but there are not 129 million trees in this category.

Most are in remote areas, and removing them would be extremely costly and ecologically devastating. The black-backed woodpecker, northern fisher and northern spotted owl are among the species that rely on dead tree habitat.

Also, dead trees store carbon for decades. As they decompose, much of their carbon returns to the soil, where it is held for thousands of years.'


next;

Calls for federal forest to go private and free from government controls and mandates.

yeah, the Sierra Club would love that one, wouldn't they? They think the only good tree now is a dead tree?!

Well, knock me down with a feather, never thought I'd hear Gov "Moonbeam" utter these words.

'Gov. Jerry Brown spoke this week during a wildfire press update about the need 'to do planned burnings' and 'to thin out the forest.''

"The U.S. Forest Service estimates that California has 129 million dead trees, most in the central and southern Sierras. Insects and drought are to blame for the high numbers." California has no commercial timber operations on state-owned lands." "

"Extreme environmental groups have for years stated that we shouldn't thin our forests because of the benefits of carbon that is stored," said Assemblyman Travis Allen, R-Huntington Beach. "However, the carbon that is currently being released with these out-of-control wildfires is dramatically greater than we would have if our forests were responsibly managed."

We know in the East here that live green trees don't burn unless you have a lot of dead fuel which will raise the fire temps enough to cause that, which is why here in the East we do burn off of brush and dead trees in our controlled forested areas. We have some fires during drought times, but NEVER like experienced in California, in the Western states, because we MANAGE the forests, which are MOSTLY under private control.


'More than half the forest land in the United States (423 million acres)—mostly located in the East—is owned and managed by some 11 million private forest owners. Of those private forest owners, 92 percent (10 million owners) are classified as “family forest” owners.'



Who's to blame? California government and Sierra Club's influence, even strong control over their deluded elected officials. Instead why not sue the Sierra Club to help pay for the current devastation, and the deaths caused by their foolish interventions, and maybe if that organization is brought to the brink of bankruptcy, the foolishness they continue to espouse would come to a halt.
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Like so many other things about the environment,
Nov 16, 2018 5:03AM PST

it isn't that simple. Some random facts:
> A controlled burn at the Bandelier National Monument in NM got out of hand and became one of the worst fires ever.
> Many species - birds, rodents, insects - do rely on dead wood for food and shelter. So many that it would take a supercomputer to calculate all the interactions. Or a Creator.
> Goats and sheep have been used, serially, to control the smaller brush that may ne expendable and contributes to fires moving into the treetops. Both animals turn out to be labor intensive and not up to a forestwide cleanup.
> State, Federal or landowner, forest managers are humans. Known to make mistakes.

Are you volunteering to juggle all this, and more?

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Some of man's solutions
Nov 16, 2018 8:25AM PST

Farmer is losing chickens at night. Feathers are everywhere in the AM. Farmer hears great horned owls in nearby forested area and decides to set pole traps. Success! Owls caught and killed. However, pole traps don't discriminate and non-chicken loving owl species (such as bards) are also taken. Result? Farmer soon sees an increase in rats which eat baby chicks and chicken eggs. Bard owls eat rats. So now the farmer decides to eliminate the rats using poisoned bait. Success! The population of rats is greatly reduced. Later, however, the population of mice and rats explodes. Why? Hawks and owls eat the poisoned rats and mice and also die. These birds regulate the rodent population. Soon, the farmer's house and barn looks like a scene from Willard. Farmer's wife is not pleased and divorces farmer.

Any time someone disturbs any link in the food chain, it's felt at both ends as well.

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(NT) And don't ever bring up rabbits with an Aussie.
Nov 16, 2018 10:25AM PST
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They use ferrets, dogs and nets
Nov 16, 2018 11:15AM PST

The ferrets root them out of their burrows and the dogs chase them into nets. Viewer discretion is advised for what happens next.

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the greatest control was a virus
Nov 17, 2018 7:18AM PST

which I believe they imported from England.

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They did learn their lesson.
Nov 17, 2018 5:54PM PST

Much tighter controls on bringing in anything.
Just ask Johnny Depp. Happy
Even that virus went through heavy vetting, I'm sure.

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Specialized carp were brought in
Nov 17, 2018 10:13AM PST

from Asia to control our Great Lakes issues....they have now migrated to rivers and streams and have wiped out most of the native fish and are totally out of control. They use electric probes to shock them into flying out of the water so they can be caught with huge nets and destroyed as 'control' but it isn't working since they multiply so quickly.

Another 'quick short term fix' for the Great Lakes without enough research ahead of time for the long term or they would have known the habits of them in their own natural environment...…


It happens nearly every time some environmentalist group tries to introduce something to cure something else...….

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"We have some fires during drought times,
Nov 16, 2018 5:14AM PST

but NEVER like experienced in California, in the Western states, because we MANAGE the forests, which are MOSTLY under private control."

And your biggest success of course is managing an abundance of rainfall.

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What do you do? Rake Them?!
Nov 18, 2018 3:11PM PST
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What do I do?
Nov 19, 2018 12:12PM PST

Nothing, in CA. I live in NM. Not Sweden. Happy
"We manage ..." was in quotes because it's your statement, in your post.
Earlier I posted the Finland story from a Reuters video. My point in posting it was to show yet another 'bemusement', by your leader, of yet another foreign Head of State. In this case, from phlegmatic Phinland.
What was your purpose in posting it?

We are not bemused.

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And, I just realized you may need a 'splain on my post.
Nov 19, 2018 12:34PM PST

The first ¶, your statement.
Second ¶, mine. Here's a clarification.
<sarcasm>And your biggest success of course is managing an abundance of rainfall.</sarcasm>.
Which of course you do not 'manage'; it comes from Jehovah. More of it on the East than the West.
Who "makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous". Mt 5:45.

Remember what happened to Moses when he failed to give Jehovah credit for a provision? Of water, in fact.

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Two longreads. Both discuss culling inter alia.
Nov 16, 2018 5:33AM PST

Neither mentions Federal prohibitions.
In NM we cut 'em down.

https://www.barkbeetles.org/general/technqs.html

http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7421.html

From the UC site: "California now has 20 invasive species of bark beetles, of which 10 species have been discovered since 2002. The biology of these new invaders is poorly understood. For more information on these new species, including illustrations to help you identify them, see the USDA Forest Service pamphlet, Invasive Bark Beetles (PDF)."

So a solution may not come from the soundbite left or right.

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(NT) Is this the new solar energy thread?
Nov 15, 2018 2:42PM PST
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Well, vegetation is fossil sunlight, it's said.
Nov 16, 2018 4:50AM PST

Or, y'all can make it the mass killing thread, or Obama delenda est, or ...

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Now it turns out there were 600 people missing
Nov 16, 2018 5:09AM PST

since day one*, but 'nobody knew it'.
Well, not quite true. Each of the 600 had someone who was looking, no doubt, but there wasn't a total count until now. That is a BAD fire.

* Camp Fire.

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Or more.
Nov 18, 2018 7:07AM PST
Sad
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Just found out that Paradise, CA had a Kingdom Hall.
Nov 16, 2018 6:06AM PST

Had.

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Ironic isn't it?
Nov 18, 2018 2:54AM PST

I thought you believed in Paradise on earth. Wink

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First, the existence of that word in so many
Nov 18, 2018 6:35AM PST

place names indicates some sort of desire in us to have it. Ec 3:10,11 explains, "I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart..."
Second, "we" believe there was a Paradise and there will be another one because all who take the Bible seriously believe so. Gen 1:28 has Jehovah's first command to man. "Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.'" That didn't happen; Adam interfered. If the only way out is to destroy everything, as your god intends, then Adam proved stronger than his Creator. Instead, our God Jehovah purposes to restore Paradise on earth, proving himself capable of keeping his promises. Ps 115:16, "As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men."
Thus proving himself capable of 'doing what is his delight'. Isa 55:10, "So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight".
No more death on the earth. Rev 21:4, "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.i The former things have passed away.”
Jesus has been put in charge of that. "For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up [or, destroy] the works of the Devil." The chief of those works is death in all its forms. No sin; no death; Paradise. That brings about the fulfillment of David's prophecy at Ps 37:29, "The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it."

All of which you can read in your own Bible. All of which you have heard from me several times.
So your comment is answered by God's word, not man's.

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You seem surprised.....
Nov 18, 2018 3:30AM PST

Are Kingdom Halls so rare? I bet there were Christian churches, mosques, synagogues et al as well that are now in the 'had' category.

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Not surprised, sad.
Nov 18, 2018 7:06AM PST

The news is on our website. In fact I didn't know Paradise had a KH. If the town is rebuilt and enough congregants remain, it will be rebuilt. In the meantime we find temporary housing for our meetings.
I'm sure you're right about the others. I report what I know.
I checked newadvent.org for Catholic news, but no fire reports, although I think there were some previously.

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only the church building remains
Nov 18, 2018 3:06PM PST
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Anthony Hopkins...
Nov 18, 2018 3:31PM PST
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Yeah, I saw that earlier.
Nov 19, 2018 6:02AM PST

There was a CA fire some years ago, smaller but just as intense, in which one house on a residential street was unharmed. Had to do with making it fireproof from the ground up, paying attention to every detail.
Not that expensive as I recall, just carefully planned.
Hopkins' was more on the miracle side IMO.

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Such a sorrowful time
Nov 19, 2018 6:13AM PST

for these folks , loss of life and property.
Let's hope going forward that there will be new building codes .
If these fires in Cal. are due to climate change , the building codes have to change as well.

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People make bad choices.
Nov 19, 2018 12:05PM PST

Will the codes get passed into law? Time will tell.