For Steven Haninger: Re Noahide Law

I wonder if they prayed for Lazarus? What of the child Elijah raised from the dead? Does God hear prayer from Sheol or "the grave" also called "hell" or "Hades"? You like the Psalms. What say they?

The concept of praying for eternal salvation for those who died I think is erroneous. Maybe some there can pray, I don't totally reject that concept. Have I ever prayed for a deceased one? Yes. Why? On the chance that it might do some good. Why not? People prayed for the dead to be restored to them and some of them were. In that sense a prayer for the dead was rewarded with a result. I wouldn't build a religious doctrine around it. The bible does teach we can pray for the sins of others.
=====================

1 Samuel 2:6 - The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Psalms 30:3 - O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol, restored me to life from among those gone down to the Pit.

Psalms 86:13 - For great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Psalms 139:8 - If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!


Proverbs 30:16 - Sheol, the barren womb, the earth ever thirsty for water, and the fire which never says, "Enough."

Isaiah 38:18 - For Sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness.

Jonah 2:2 - saying, "I called to the LORD, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice.

I'm not sure why you posted the first three scriptures. They're true statements, but they don't say any more than 'the dead are dead until Jehovah does something about it,' which doesn't get any argument from me!
Proverbs 30 fits with my understanding of "Sheol" as merely the common grave of mankind. Can you imagine that ever being filled up? Not as long as we have oceans and canyons and such for the job! I can't imagine Jehovah running out of room, either.
Isaiah 38 is interesting. It repeats what someone once said about the dead, that they "know nothing." Oh, right; it's the bible that says that: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten ... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She?ol, the place to which you are going.? (Ec 9:5,10)
I think that would include the power to 'hope,' which is how I take "cannot hope for God's faithfulness." Otherwise it seems to teach that Jehovah won't resurrect no one, no time, no how.
Jonah was, of course, inside a "great fish," not a grave, because of displeasing Jehovah. A good illustration, which Jesus also used to prophecy his own death and resurrection. (Mt 12:39-41)

"People prayed for the dead to be restored to them and some of them were"
Yes, those miracles did occur, and we all wish they were occurring today. But they aren't, and I believe there's a reason for that.
Jehovah's purpose has always been to see his earthly creation filled with happy humans, worshiping him in paradisaic conditions. (Gen 1:28; Isa 55:10,11; Ps 115:16; Ps 37:11,29; Mt 5:5; Rev 21:3,4) If we really are in the last days, as seen in the manifestation of the composite sign Jesus and his followers talked about, the there will soon be an earthwide resurrection, after Armaggedon has cleaned up man's mess. (Ps 37:10,2 In that case it's useless to pray for that to happen now, because the promise is certain, and it will happen on Jehovah's schedule. (Mt 24:36; Hab 2:2,3)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico (Pray for me! )

Lazarus was 4 days gone which was thought to be the "defacto" point of no return and praying would have ceased. This was proof of the miracle of his being brought back by Jesus.

praying. From being with Jesus, they would have learned the correct- non-Pharisaical- view of death, which of course was also in their bibles.
We can see this from the exchange between Martha and Jesus:
?Martha therefore said to Jesus: ?Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died. And yet at present I know that as many things as you ask God for, God will give you.? Jesus said to her: ?Your brother will rise.? Martha said to him: ?I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.? Jesus said to her: ?I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?? She said to him: ?Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world.? (Joh 11:21-27)

But it's true that the four days would have made the point to everyone there. Remember the Pharisees sought to kill Lazarus again because they had no other answer to Jesus' miracle.

BTW, "resurrection" comes orginally from the idea in a word meaning 'to stand up again.' (Dan 12:13) Nowadays we also take it to mean 'coming back to life,' body position not important. In either case the bible's view is reinforced: Dead is dead.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Then the nefesh chaya would be equivalent to what we refer to today as man's (earthly) "sinful nature", and the neshamah is what we become when we are made perfect in God's sight at death?

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

nefesh chaya could be translated as "living soul" as in "alive"
"choleh nefesh" mentally disturbed (sick spirit/soul)
"barach kol odd sh'nefsho shalem" got out of there while his spirit/soul was still intact

in simple terms, man and animal have a "nefesh chaya" a 'spirit' a 'something' that puts them apart from rocks or trees, but when you explain to a 5 yr old where her dead mommy is you 'might' say "mommys "neshemah" soul is with god/jesus in heaven or whatever kind of afterlife you believe in...


jonah

.

Evolution has not been thoroughly debunked nor has Sitchin. I have read Sitchin's works, The 12th Planet and Genesis Revisited. Have you? If so could you tell me which ones? I have read criticisms of Sitchin's works. None of which I consider a thorough debunking.Quoting non-Christian sources,Can you tell me who has debunked Sitchin or Daniken for that matter,so thouroughly?
Evolution may have some problems but even if Evolution were thoroughly discredited at some point, it would not make Creationism true.
Are you into an exchange of ideas?
If so, let's begin with what I take to be your primary working assumption, that is that the Earth and the universe is only 4-6000 years old as stated in the bible.
Are you familiar with the speed of light? The speed of light is an undisputable scientific fact. Scientists can accurately measure the speed of light. Agreed? There is no Atheist speed of light, no Christian Speed of light and no Agnostic speed of light.Agreed?
The speed of light is a measure of both time and distance, specifically the time it takes light to travel from one place to another. We measure this in "light years".
Light years are used to determine how far things are by telling how long it takes for light to get from point A to point B. Agreed? So all you ave to do is find some point in the universe that is more than 6000 light years away and you have just disproven the idea that the universe is only 6000 years old, because the light you see from an object that is 6000 light years away, left that object 6000 years ago and is only now arriving here.
If you google the subject you will see that our tiny little universe is more than 150,000 light years across.The night sky reveals countless proofs that the universe is more than 6000 years old. Take out even a modest telescope and you will see galaxies that are millions of light years away.

is 4-6000 years old.
That would put the beginning of human history at about 2-4000 B.C.E. Correct?
If that is the case then you believe no one could have existed before 2-4000 B.C.E. Am I right?
You asked for examaples of humans before this time.
I give you the Egyptians, the Hindu peoples and the Chinese.

Regards,

Yes. Mel Brooks I'm sure was there too. So many others were in a number of different regions. They hadn't heard about Noah and his flood. I guess it missed them.

Regards,