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For Steven Haninger: Re Noahide Law

Hey Steve!

I had to start a new thread because I could not post a reply to your message in the "Was Indonesia Punished" discussion.
I dealt with Melchizedek argument here:http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=54044&messageID=1072940

I have to say I was a little surprised to see a Christian citing Noahide Law, although not altogether surprised. The strict view of Christianity, according to talmudic/noachian scholars is that Christian theology is avodah zarah (loosely translated as "idolatry").Today, however,Christianity is considered less so and Christians are more or less condidered noahides.More or less.The Trinity is still considered idolatrous and polytheistic by some jewish scholars and by Muslim thinkers as well, notably the Sufis.The debate/inconsistency within talmudic circles, makes Noahide law, not only inapplicable but null and void. In fact thgere is serious debate among christians as to whether Noahide law should or does apply to Christians.
Intersting, isn't it,that Jesus himself violated noahide law by his commandment that his followers must hate their families in order to follow him.Never mind the ghastly way in which he addresses his mother. See here:http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94626&messageID=1074457

The Noahide law argument has to be the height of conditioned insular thinking.Just because a few jewish talmudic scholars say we are all bound by noahide law does not make it so, certainly not on the basis of some hijacked mythological tale like the Flood.Lots of societies/civilizations have/had their own laws contrived in various ways before and/or after Adam and Noah came along.
Walk in to a village somewhere in a non-christian part of Africa or India or China or Thailand or Siberia and mention Noahide law.See the response you (don't) get.Atually, for that matter, walk into any villge christian or not and see what response you get when you cite Noahide law.I asked a number of Christians about Noahide law and most of them had no clear idea as to what it was.
More to the point, however, is that Noahide law is said to apply to all people(S) through their descent from Adam to Noah after the flood.Steven, are you really going to argue that we are all descended from Adam and Noah?
Parts of Noahide law are simply ridiculous and patently anti-christian.Steven, there are sections of Noahide law proscribing various rocks and trees.Polygyny and the possesion of concubines is permissible under Noahide law. Judaism also professes that animals have souls. (Latin-anima=soul)
Finally, Noahide law requires that the accused be put on trial. Show me where it says(anywhere) that the Canaanites were given a fair trial as prescribed by this arcane Noahide law.Show me where it says that the Canaanites took delivery of Noahide law. They certainly didn't have to obey it even if they did.
They had their own God,"El the most high".

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I looked carefully at that thread

In reply to: For Steven Haninger: Re Noahide Law

and could not find anything subject matter remotely related to your post in which I entered into discussion. I had very little activity in this thread and attempted to avoid it. I have absolutely no understanding of Noahide law and, to be honest with you, am not familiar with the term. You put much time and effort into this post. You may wish to reread the Indonesia/Tsunami thread and see that your response finds its way to the right person. Regards.

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My apologies Steven.

In reply to: I looked carefully at that thread

I am currently engaged with a number of individuals regarding matters related to the Indonesia thread. I guess I lost track.

Best to you this Easter Steven!

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???

In reply to: For Steven Haninger: Re Noahide Law

Judaism also professes that animals have souls
could you post a link to that?

Polygyny and the possesion of concubines is permissible under Noahide law

i assume that by Polygyny you mean "have more than one ******"....
Wink


,
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... then wouldn't it be The ******

In reply to: ???

Dialogues?
Anyway, you're both way off base:
?.

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OK Jonah

In reply to: ???

Here is a link:http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=192&o=2468
I use this site as a primary online source to learn about Judaism. You can connect live to Judaic scholars who will answer any question you like regarding Judaism.I especially enjoy my exchanges with Rabbi Shlomo T. Chein.
However, I would not just rely on internet sources for these things, although I do recommend the link I just gave you.You must have some useful resources on this issue yourself, Jonah.

Best,

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I can give you this much!

In reply to: ???

Hi jonah,

I read an article once that argued the point that animals have souls and inhabit Heaven. These are the things they cited.

Gen 9:16,17 God has covenant with "ALL FLESH" (every living creature) that shall never be cut off.
Luke 3:16 again, ALL FLESH (every living creature)
Mark 16:15 "to every creature"
Luke 12:6 God refuses to forget a single one of His creatures, no matter how small or insignificant.
These are based on the Hebrew term for animals "nephesh chaya" or "soul living". English translations differentiate animal and human, but OT Hebrew does not. Some say this means that animals also fall under living souls.
Finally, Isaiah 65:25 Isaiah's peaceable kingdom where Heaven is described tells of wolves and lambs and lists other animals there as well.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

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Yes Cindi and in addtition

In reply to: I can give you this much!

one could cite the noahide law that proscribes cruelty to animals (number 6 I believe).Also,the dietary laws are very strict and clear about proper and respectful treatment of animals that are to be eaten by humans. I do not believe that the scibers of a religious code of ethics would go out of their way to proscribe cruelty to animals without the underlying belief that animals are ensouled.

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ummmmmmmm 05:24 and supposed to be working

In reply to: I can give you this much!

The problem of using English translations that rely on an understanding of Jewish culture is apparent or Context not of just the line, but the paragraph and story, the word or phrase is in, is important or the term "nefesh" (animal soul) instead of the higher order soul (neshamah)

from here --> http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Judaism.htm which i found here --> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=animal+soul+judaism

an example, when the tsunamis hit indonesia, it was reported "ain nefesh chaya, rak ha-chayot nisharu b'chaim" "not a living soul survived, only the animals remain"

during life and after death, the christian.. "soul" is and becomes "neshamah"

btw, aretha franklin and ray charles are regarded as "neshamah-soul" singers, and if i wax lyrical for a moment at this pre-dawn moment ray charles "hichzir et nishmato l'boreh" -returned his soul to the creator-...

as the man said, it's all context...

i asked 5 people here "do animals have souls according to judaism?", the answer was "no"


jonah "still struggling with the language" jones


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Well Jonah one thing you can take to the bank

In reply to: ummmmmmmm 05:24 and supposed to be working

is that two different Rabbis with whom I have spoken both said that Judaism holds that animals are ensouled and are equal to the human in the grand scheme of things.

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ensouled=nefesh chayah=soul? yes

In reply to: Well Jonah one thing you can take to the bank

neshamah/spirit=equivalent to the christian "soul", no...

translation, context, meaning....


.

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(NT) (NT) Yes Jonah. That was my point. Continue....

In reply to: ensouled=nefesh chayah=soul? yes

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next time you talk to your rabbis

In reply to: Well Jonah one thing you can take to the bank

ask them "if Judaism holds that animals are ensouled and are equal to the human in the grand scheme of things, will the animals rise up on the day the messiah comes?"

and "if a man and his dog are killed in an accident, do the two "souls" accompany each other on there way to the pearly gates?"...

words meanings and context...


.

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Actually Jonah, I am going to leave that to you.

In reply to: next time you talk to your rabbis

I know there are many debates on many issues within the Judaic community. I for one am satisfied that Judaism holds that animals are ensouled and should be well treated and regarded equally by humans. The more doctrinnaire points can be left to you and your Rabbi(s) to determine.

Regards,

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if ignorance is bliss

In reply to: Actually Jonah, I am going to leave that to you.

then you're heaven already...

when i get home, i'll post the transcript of a short discussion i had at the site you linked too, in the meantime, if can pluck up the courage... i'm sure you'll get over it...


.

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One thing I noticed myself about AskMoses,

In reply to: if ignorance is bliss

you look long enough there, you'll find something to agree with any preconceived notion you have.
Years ago one of the Advice Ladies had a kid ask her if his dead doggie would be in heaven with him. She asked around with her [prominent] friends; the only definite "answer" came from Theo. Hesburgh: 'Tell the kid whatever he wants to hear.'
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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Strange DR, I have never seen such a thing.

In reply to: One thing I noticed myself about AskMoses,

In fact quite the reverse. The Rabbis are quite willing to mix it up with you on a given point If they disagree with you. I find them largely representative of the Judaic faith. I choose to learn when I go there DR. What do you do?

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Juadaism is like Islam in that there's no single authority

In reply to: Strange DR, I have never seen such a thing.

with doctrinal supremacy, Echo. So as with many such arguments, the bottom line is that you and Jonah are both right -- both points of view have proponents within Judaism (and Christianity). But since Genesis says God gave man dominion over the world and all that is in it (specifically including the animals), I think the notion that human souls and animal souls are equal in God's eyes is a distinctly minority view. I can remember having exactly this discussion in freshman religion class at my Jesuit high school, and we were taught that though they do exist, "doggie souls" are different from human souls.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Maybe, if doggies and men "had" souls.

In reply to: Juadaism is like Islam in that there's no single authority

Here's a quote from
(a) a famous Jew, who was
(b) qualified as rabbi ("teacher"), and
(c) speaking in accord with a "single authority."

?For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. . .? (Ec 3:19)

So the bible teaches that at death we're all alike; plant, animal, human. Only thing after that, if any, is up to Jehovah, who has turned over the judging privilege to his son. John 5:27.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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Good point Dave.

In reply to: Juadaism is like Islam in that there's no single authority

But when issues of doctrine come up in everyday discourse both sides are obliged to tell the other where they are getting their info. I am not Jewish, so I defer to Rabbinic authority and scholarly works on the subject both secular and Judaic.
Jonah has not told me where it says in Judaic doctrine that animals do not have souls. It may be a matter of degrees but everywhere I look it states Judaic doctrine holds that animals have souls. When you dig a little deeper they say animals and humans are equal in standing before the lord or in the grand scheme of things however you wish to phrase it because humans rely on anmimals to live. Humans will die without animals therefore animals and humans were and are created equally. It may be a matter of degrees but I have found no source to indicate that Judaic doctrine does not hold that animals have souls.
Please, if you find such a source I would be most interested to see it.

Thank you,

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re:

In reply to: Good point Dave.

I am not Jewish, so I defer to Rabbinic authority and scholarly works on the subject both secular and Judaic

i'm not jewish either, you read a book, i refer to real life, everyday usage of the hebrew language and the answers i get from jews...

It may be a matter of degrees but everywhere I look it states Judaic doctrine holds that animals have souls

not a matter of degrees, but definitions, this is all old ground but lets till it again...

throw the words soul/spirit/neshemah into the air and ask a jew and a christian to describe them, you won't get identical descriptions

When you dig a little deeper they say animals and humans are equal in standing before the lord or in the grand scheme of things however you wish to phrase it because humans rely on anmimals to live. Humans will die without animals therefore animals and humans were and are created equally

wrong.. see gen 1:26

It may be a matter of degrees but I have found no source to indicate that Judaic doctrine does not hold that animals have souls

again, definitions/context...

a little story for you.............

man and dog walking through a forest, fire breaks out, forest burnt to the ground, man and dog burnt to a crisp....

dead man. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?
dead dog. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?
dead forest. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?

btw, the usage of the term "up to heaven/down to hell" is not to imply that either of us believe in the possibility and is used merely for the argument...


,
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(NT) (NT) I'm looking forward to it Jonah. Should be interesting!

In reply to: if ignorance is bliss

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transcript "much ado about nothing"

Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment...what's on your mind
jonah1: if animals have souls, will they rise when the messiah comes?
jonah1: i ask because it is stated on the "ask moses" site Do animals have souls? the answer given was every object which was created by G-d contains a divine spark which gives life and existence to that object. This spark is known as the "soul."
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: right, that is what keeps it alive, but only Jewish ppl have souls that are a part of G-d, and will arise when Messiah comes
jonah1: i think people are confused between nefesh chaya and neshamah? i.e. spirit versus soul (soul used in the christian sense)
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: right, Jews have a neshoma which is a part of G-d, like one big fire that has flames lit from it where animals for example have souls (nefesh) that keep them alive but will not be ressurected
jonah1: so, how do you explain to a non jew the difference ?
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: The point is every Jew has a neshama and thats what makes the Jewish ppl
jonah1: would you use the word soul if you meant neshamah?
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: The Jewish ppl are G-ds chosen nation
jonah1: the reason i ask is that a discussion is going on here -->
jonah1: http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6142-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94896&messageID=1074592
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: neshoma is a soul
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: ok
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: I dont really have time to look it up now
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: since its a bit busy here
jonah1: ok, so thanks for your time
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: Sorry I am not sending you off
jonah1: it's not a problem
Mrs. Chana Sorah Danow: dont forget that if you are not Jewish you can also be a person that is doing what G-d wants them to be doing thats the point of every persons life and the question to ask them self "Am I being how G-d wants ME to be"
not someone else

the rest was blah blah and "goodbye"


.

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jeez............

In reply to: transcript "much ado about nothing"

if you already knew the part about the neshoma/neshama then you would also know that previous statements you made were false (or misguided) to say the least....

the Jew begins his or her day with a prayer of thanks to Yahweh that he made him/her a jew and not a gentile yes, they do say that, but do you know why? and AFAIK, a jew also starts his day by thanking god that he was born a man and not a woman....but i guess your two rabbis will tell you differently

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Actually no Jonah

In reply to: jeez............

The two Rabbis made it clear that animals were ensouled.My reading has made it clear that animals are ensouled. They Rabbis were not mistaken. My point was that animals under Judaic law are considered ensouled and that is at odds with some if not most Christian doctrine. That was the point of my post about Noahide law.My point had nothing to do with the nature of the human soul in relation to YHWH.As you know if you read my post I did not get the prayer from the Rabbis. I got it from the book by Norman Cantor.
By the way Jonah since when have you been the central dispensation point for Judaic doctrine and orthodoxy. Sorry to butt in on your nice little delusion but there is more than "Jonah" Judaism.
It is perfectly possible to discuss why you think the Rabbis and literature I have consulted are wrong.

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as a non jew

In reply to: Actually no Jonah

i would be the LAST person to say that i was the central dispensation point for Judaic doctrine and orthodoxy

i have been asked in the past to give the viewpoint of someone living in israel, i have at times given an opinion (about things jewish) based on 30 years living here or the fact that i am married to a jew...

so, the only one here suffering a delusion is you i'm afraid...


as for your use of "ensouled"... if you mean "to endow with a soul" then you also believe/mean/imply(involve by logical necessity) that dogs cats elephants zebras and mice go to heaven?

the litmus test of asking your rabbis 2 questions is already a no-go, so i wish you a happy day.....

..

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Reply to you Jonah

In reply to: transcript "much ado about nothing"

To your posts here http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94896&messageID=1129391
and here:
http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94896&messageID=1129372I guess we're back where we started. I believe Judaic tradition does hold that animals have souls and for some reason you do not, although sources you quote seem to disagree with you. With the exception of Maimodes, they all think animals have souls. Whether humans are ?above? or ?below? animals is a different issue.
Maimodes, it is true did not believe that animals have a soul. He was a Rationalist in the Age of Enlightenment and as such was representative of his time. No surprise there. As far as I can tell Maimodes' musings on the subject are not considered dogma or commandments. He is just one of thousands of notable Jewish thinkers, though.
Other Jewish scholars many, a large majority,in fact, past and the present think differently than he did.
Most importantly though, you still have not shown me that Judaism does not hold that animals have souls. That?s the point of this discussion. At least I think that?s the point.
Animals have souls in Judaic tradition. They may or may not be equal to humans. They are, however, present in each animal. Judaism also holds that animals are sentient. They feel pain anxiety etc. Our relation to the animals differs depending on which Judaic source you consult.

-------not a matter of degrees, but definitions, this is all old ground but lets till it again...-----

Wrong. It is a matter of kind and of degrees, degrees meaning "rank" if you will. But let?s not get hung up on semantics shall we. Rank, as far as I can tell from your posts seems to be the issue for you. As I said with one exception, your own sources either believe animals have souls or say nothing about their souls. The quotes you provide have to do with their ?rank? in relation to humans. There are a number of kinds of souls in Judaic tradition. Animals it seems are on the lower end of the scale. But this is a tenuous assertion at best as many Jewish scholars believe that the souls are equal. As you know, the idea of the soul in Hebraic tradition and language is not the same as found in the western/Christian world. For one, there are a number of different words for "soul" in the language of the Tenakh. The soul is in fact considered a "conglomerate," made up of multiple parts. Generally speaking, there are considered to be five "levels" of the soul (each complex in its own right):
1. Nefesh (soul)
2. Ruach (spirit)
3. Neshema (breath)
4. Chaya (living essence)
5. Yechida (unique essence)
Animals are one kind, humans another. You cite genesis in support of your point, let me cite Proverbs in support of mine.? The righteous person knows the soul [Nefesh] of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel," Proverbs 12:10. As I have stated some Jewish scholars believe there is no inequality between animal and human souls. As you have shown, others do.
Interesting. One school of Judaic thought holds that non-Jews have animal souls and Jews have divine souls. Another believes that humans have an upper (divine) soul and a lower (animal) soul simultaneously. You can also find a belief called "metempsychosis" in Judaic tradition in which a human soul passes into an animal and in turn ensouls that animal retaining its human consciousness, in order to atone for a specific sin. Still another, perhaps related to one or more of the above traditions, holds that animals themselves can be debased by humans through misuse of their energy, for which the person who ate them will have to answer in the next life. In his book, My Prayer, Lubavitcher Chassid Rabbi Nissim Mindel states that if one eats a chicken and then uses its energy to cheat or steal, the chicken can demand at the Heavenly Court, "By what right have you taken my life, and involved me in crime, which I would never have committed otherwise?"(Much more to all of these doctrines of course)


You quote Gen 1:26 as proof that humans are above animals in the earth hierarchy (although one Rabbi objected to my use of the term hierarchy)
First of all "dominion over" does in no way imply superiority. This is a barbaric form of thought.
Note that immediately after God gave people dominion over animals (Genesis 1:26), He prohibited their use for food (Genesis 1:29). Dominion means guardianship or stewardship - being co-workers with God in taking care of and improving the world. (Shabbat 119; Sanhedrin 7) The Talmud interprets "dominion" as the privilege of using animals for labour only. (Sanhedrin 59b) Note the use of the word privilege. The animals do their thing that only they can do. We do ours which only we can do. Together we preserve and care for the earth (God's Kingdom).
Commenting on Genesis 1:26, Rashi stated: "If a person is found worthy, he has dominion over the animals. If he is not found worthy, he becomes subservient before them and the animals rule over him."
I like Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook's position on the subject. Philosophically it's rather neat.
Rabbi Moshe Chaim Lutzatto's position on the issue sounds reasonable to me, that is to say that animals have souls but are "inferior" souls in relation to humans'. I think many scholars also hold that view. I would say from my reading that this, or an approximation of it, is the closest you will get to a representative statement of Judaic thought on this issue. Opinions range from the Rationalists (Maimodes) on one end to the mystics on the other. Why you quoted this Rabbi is beyond me since it only proves my point, that is, that Jews believe animals have souls.

The real question here, I believe, is whether Christian doctrine holds that animals have souls. For example, where does Proverbs 12:10 fit into modern Christian theology.You have stated that "throw the words soul/spirit/neshemah into the air and ask a jew and a christian to describe them, you won't get identical descriptions"Yes.That's the point.My point at least.I am not quite sure as to why you included this in your post.
I assume Christian doctrine does not accept the idea of animals having souls. Although it is interesting to note that according to the OT, animals and humans are all going to the same place anyway. I do not believe this is official doctrine. Official doctrine, I grant you, even in other religions, is not always easy to determine.

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re 3

In reply to: if ignorance is bliss

a little story for you.............

man and dog walking through a forest, fire breaks out, forest burnt to the ground, man and dog burnt to a crisp....

dead man. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?
dead dog. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?
dead forest. what goes "up to heaven/down to hell"?

btw, the usage of the term "up to heaven/down to hell" is not to imply that either of us believe in the possibility and is used merely for the argument...


,

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Gen 2:7 et al., Hebrew bible only:

In reply to: ummmmmmmm 05:24 and supposed to be working

?And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.? (Ge 2:7)

?I, even I, have said in my heart with regard to the sons of mankind that the [true] God is going to select them, that they may see that they themselves are beasts. For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.? (Ec 3:18-20)

?For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun ...

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we have a problem Houston :-(

In reply to: Gen 2:7 et al., Hebrew bible only:

doug, you have the bible and the knowledge, i have the language ;-)...

i know how nefesh chaya (living soul in this: And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.? (Ge 2:7) is used in todays usage...

i always liked ecclesiastes, made it really simple to understand that when it comes down to the bottom line, the ONLY difference between us and the animals is that when we and the animals die, our nefesh chaya (living soul, as it's been used here) ends and it's the neshemah (the christian "soul" that sets us apart...

.

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Sorry, I forgot this post was here.

In reply to: we have a problem Houston :-(

Jonah, I don't know where your language studies are leading you, but you seem to have learned the Hebrew for "tree" but not yet for "forest." Happy
The word I transliterated as "nephesh," and its variants, is the word used in every old manuscript I know of at Gen 2:7- so the nephesh. is what man is, not something he has. Once this simple fact of language is learned, and if we also put any credence in the bible, then all the reincarnation and heaven/hell junk goes away. What's left is simple and clear:
We got life from Jehovah, and he'll give it back after our first death (Rev 2:11; 20:9,14; 21:8) only if we show him a good heart condition in this present life. (Ec 9;10) No amount of 'praying for the dead' can help us. And whether that life is on earth with a physical body or in heaven with a spiritual one is irrelevant; that's God's choice.
I don't know what you meant by 'Christian soul,' if it's different from Gen 2:7, but I have seen the churches' view getting life w/o Jehovah in the bible. It's at Gen 3:4.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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