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Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!


I have to make sure that my stuff is presentable in different browsers. I've been working with them for years and to this day -- I don't see why everyone's upset by one or the other.

I surf the net with both IE and Firefox. I don't see a difference--really, I don't. Now maybe it's because I don't care about browser security and I certainly can't differentiate a bug from a feature. Basically, it's not that important. I haven't worked with any customers who have asked me about browser scurity.

Is this just Microsoft bashing? I mean really? seriously??

What is wrong with IE and why do so many people(mostly geeks) hate it?
Is it security?(which I don't care about anyway.)
Speed? (it works as fast as FF on my computer and old laptop).
What are people doing with these browsers that makes them hate one over the other so much. I'll admit, I like tabbed browsing, that's cool! but other than that? I don't see why IE is getting slammed so much...

My customers ask me and I don't know what to tell them.

Please, no flaming... I'm an experienced web designer, not a J2EE developer or a C programmer, nor am I hacker wannabe.

Thanks.(looking for guidance here...)

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I'm with you. . .

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

My opinions here on the subject are legendary. I have been running IE since day one, tried Netscape, back to IE, tried Moz, back again, tried FF, and guess what. I have FF installed only to verify my web site (designed by me and on my IBM server) is accessable. Many people here bash IE, but I've had exactly zero problems. I do run NAV 2005, various spyware blockers (see my site below at the Anti-Spyware Suite link) and keep my three machines (two XP and one W98SE, the server) updated.

I'm happy.

Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to
use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks.

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Me, too!

In reply to: I'm with you. . .

I use MSN9 and IE and as far as I'm concerned, both are extremely intuitive. I've tried all the others and I find myself trying to figure out the most basic functions. With IE, I surf the web with no problem. That is, after all, all I want. Norton takes care of my security issues.

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My input

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I often recommend users switch to Firefox for security reasons. The main one being that because IE is used by 90%, (or whatever the current figure is), of internet users, it is IE that is targeted by virus writers, spyware, adware, hackers etc.

With IE comes OE which has had it's own share of security problems, and so I recommend people switching to another email client. I don't use OE myself, but use Netscapes Messenger 7.1.

Having said that, I still use IE for Windows Updates and the odd web page that Firefox doesn't render the way the web designer prefers, and I have had no problems with IE.

However, I use a suite of anti-malware programs constantly to keep my system as clean as possible of malware, and so IE hackers, etc, have less chance of passing malware on to me through my own IE than they do other IE users.

For my part I reckon that Microsoft have done a fantastic job. Without them my own experiences on the internet may have been so much different, and perhaps less enjoyable, so I hope I don't Microsoft bash as other people may do.

The problem, as I see it, is one of scale. IE is the most widely used browser, for whatever reason, and it is the main target of malware. If and when Firefox, Netscape or anything else takes the lead, that browser may well become the main target of attacks, and my advice might then be, "switch to IE".


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100% agree with Mark

In reply to: My input

i use firefox (browser) 99.9% of the time, and thunderbird (email) 100% of the time for the reasons stated, it's a fact that IE & OE are "prime" targets for the bad guys, why make life easier for them?



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My input

In reply to: My input

Couldn't agree more!

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What is wrong with IE ... ?

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

It's simple. If we ommit security problems (which really is the result of being used by majority and thus being attacked primarily), what can IE do to improve your browsing?

In IE:
- Can you zoom the page just with mousewheel? If you have to read the net 6+ hours daily, you will find zooming (and fitting to window width, consequently) indispensable.

- Can you control your work with mouse gestures? Once you get accustomed to it you will not understand how you could live without it. Opening links on background with just a mouse jerk is something you'l get addicted to in no time.

- Can you handle your mail (mail client) in the browser itself, with commands equal for both?

- Can you process newsfeeds (RSS, ATOM) in it?

- Can you switch to text only/cashed images only/full display with just a single keystroke? When you are on slow connection this will come extremely handy

- Can you open a second page, linked to the first one, so that you just click the links in (let us say) left half of the window and see the contents displayed in another half?

- Can you save your scenario (currently open pages) together with their various settings (full screen for one page, other page sized and zoomed etc.) so that you open the same load next time with just a mouse click?

- Can you download multiple files simlutaneously on background with just a right click and with possibility to interrupt,stop ,resume interrupted transfers any time?

- Can you switch on/off javascript, java, gif animation, sound in pages, plugins with just two clicks?

- Can you display svg graphics?

If you really do not need any of these (and tens of other improvements - it should take a full-size article to name them all), then IE is sufficient for you Happy

- Can you command your browser with your voice? Can you make your IE read the selected text aloud?

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In reply to: What is wrong with IE ... ?

sir, you're obviously a power user and I don't think that your usage of a browser represents the majority. For users such as yourself, Firefox obviously has its advantages. I've tried Mouse Gestures and zooming into pages quickly lost interest--and yes, I spend a lot time reading web pages--I'm a web designer.

But for the avarage user? I talk to a lot of people that use a browser to do day-to-day tasks, e.g., ebay, banking, reading web-mail.

The point of my question came from some of these people asking me and I didn't know what to tell them. This tells me that most people don't use those wonderful features that you have become accustomed to.

Still, this doesn't address "IE bashing", it simply states your preference.

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Just Right

In reply to: What is wrong with IE ... ?

Talk about hitting the nail on the head. Janpoko is so right on with the FACTS. Security, security, security. Features, features, features. When BIG MONIES get it done right perhaps then and only then we the people will return. Power users or not. IE is dangerous and lacks in quality features. Again hats off to both the FOX and Janpoko.

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Is it the Features, or the Amount of Features

In reply to: What is wrong with IE ... ?

First issue is your Zooming. I can stay on the web for 10 hours and never have an issue of sight, nor do I sit directly infront of the monetor, which will cause temporary blindness. And yes, you can zoom using CRTL SCROLL.

You can type in commands faster than jerks, and if you have a propperly calibrated mouse, you can move anywhere in the screen in .5 seconds.

Mail...inside the browser...this is a common monopoly tactic, release software that can do more than you need.

Free Software is avaliable for chacheing images, although I don't care for it because the HTML Typically loads first.

It seems your talking about frames...something that all good webdesigners have shuned. But besides that, all good webdesigners make their web page so that you can go anywhere with a few clicks, is it that hard to push backspace?

F11 for fullscreen, if you really need bigger text CTRL SCROLL. Not that hard. Also has free software that can do the same thing.

turning off javascript...unless you go on personalized pages this is a no no, javascript controls many advanced functions, the only thing you get from turning it off is disabling popups and getting rid of annoying preK scripts on childrens Web Pages. Simple way to disable sound. Use a Mute button, or click the volume control on the task bar. (why disable your plugins?)

With aditional software you can display anything.

Ohh...your now talking about the old way of controling things that really is a lot slower than mouse/keyboard commands. If you are blind then you have need for these sort of things, but there is the windows built in reader program that will do the same thing.

I don't support IE, i just don't see where you are going with this, most of these 'features' are memory wasting material. The more features you cram into somthing, the more that has to give, why do you think that windows 95 could run off of 8MB of memmory, but XP requires 128MB? This is the type of thing I HATE bill for. Memory Wasting Features that allow universal software, all Extra Features are is a monopoly tactic.

All a brower needs is stop, refresh, print, back, forward, and adress bar. Disabling popups is a wanted bonus, And favorits is somewhat needed, but why would you need anything else if another aplication can do it for you, and better even?

Also, open Source is a term to fear. It means that once Fire Fox becomes popular, it will be used as mass means for attacking computers with. There are always back doors, and with direct examination of the code, a experianced hacker can find a multitude of security holes in raw code. So in the end is not any factor in Fire Fox, there is just a peace time between the cross fire, for now. Also if you have propperly set up firewalls, and have the common sense not to download things from strange sites, you won't have any security issues at all.

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Is it the features...........

In reply to: Is it the Features, or the Amount of Features

I agree with you, Merranvo. I prefer FF because there are no pop-ups, etc. Other than that, no big deal. Not an
MS fan but anything that can't co-exist usually goes away!

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Windows 95 on 8MB RAM - just barely.

In reply to: Is it the Features, or the Amount of Features

Have you ever tried to actually run Windows 95 on 8MB of RAM? I did it on a family friend's machine... it was a nightmare. It might run... but it would take 10 hours to do anything lol.

Also, Win95 ran on 8MB, it takes 128MB for XP... well, actually it's the same thing as with Win95, it takes a hell of a lot more if you want to run anything decent... RAM is a lot cheaper than it used to be.

When I bought my 2.4Ghz XP-running laptop, it came with 256MB RAM and was relatively slow, it didn't do that good chip justice - I went out and bought a 512MB DIMM for under $100, and it basically (seemingly) tripled the actual performance of the machine...

Do you remember how much Windows 95 and 98 crashed (I won't EVEN talk about ME lol)? XP rarely crashes compared to the whole 9x group... XP may be a little bloated, but it's far more stable. Of course, 2000 would have this advantage too.

A hint - you can speed up an XP machine quite a bit by turning off all the fancy visual features. This is especially easy to deal with if you're used to the old 9x OSes.


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I like IE

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I have many protective programs and have not had spyware or virus problems. It's too bad that when people ask questions in this forum they are told to switch to Firefax instead of getting the answer to their question.

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Yikes again! and Mark is right

In reply to: I like IE

Who uses all those useless features in FF? I didn't see one thing on that list of features that would convince me to switch. None of them are beneficial enough to go through the hassle of switching(and that is one BIG hassle, for me).
I also am one, who could care less about security. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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In reply to: Yikes again! and Mark is right

>I also am one, who could care less about security. If it
>ain't broke, don't fix it.

I used to do a lot of pc repair type work and in the last few years a good portion of it has been spyware/adware removal. I have never seen an infected computer where the user had FireFox as their primary browser. Now these are not power users, just people I have either switched over to FireFox myself or have heard about it and decided to try it. People who had consistent spyware problems before now have no issues (bad for business but good for the user).

>None of them are beneficial enough to go through the
>hassle of switching(and that is one BIG hassle, for me).

You download and install one file. FireFox imports all your bookmarks from IE. Where is the BIG hassle in that?

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In reply to: Switching

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Slimbrowser, which has all the benefits of IE, with added conveniences.

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SlimBrowser is one of the best but least mentioned Browser

In reply to: Slimbrowser

SlimBrowser is by far one of the best but least mentioned web browser out there. Yes its true that it basically runs on top of Microsoft Internet Explorer but its so much better. It works fast, it does tab browsing so much more beautiful than any other browser out there. Firefox is good too but they should look to SlimBrowser for the way their tabs automatically open when you click on a link.

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RE: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

Well it mostly is security. From a security standpoint, FireFox is much more secure then IE or Netscape. lets move onto a little about each browser and how they work (from a geeks standpoint)

1. IE: Internet Explorer is propriatay software, own in full by Microsoft and bundled with there OS. IE has become a bad taste in geeks mouths because of it's lack of functionaility, expandability and it's aparent lack of security. If you take a Windows 95 Computer and introduce it to the internet, it won't take long for some hacker to find a way into that Win95 box though your browser. To a geek, unauthorized entry is handled the same way US-SS handle the Whitehouse No-Fly Zone, kill first ask questions later.

2. Netscape: Netscape's code is propriatary but the endresult is given away freely. It is based on the Gecko engine from Mozilla. Mozilla is the open-source sister project to Mozilla and was the cream of the crom in it's hayday.

3. Firefox: Firefox is the next step in browser technology, It is completely opensource and when an exploit is found against this browser it is only a few days till it is patched/fixed whereas IE can take months before it is fixed.

4. Mozilla: Mozilla wasn't mentioned in your post but I feel it needs to be brought up for completeness. Mozilla was the last generof browsers, it has been a staple for browser technology for many years and with the move to FireFox it will soon fall into disuse and become unmaintained. But that is still years away. Mozilla is still maintained alongside Firefox and is still released today and will for many years to come, it's an Extreamly popular browser.

Keep in mind OpenSource should scare you, it just means it's free for you to use on your computer, you don't have to pay for it. Also keep in mind Mozilla/Firefox/Netscape have been more compatable with the Language behind the browsers. HTML/CSS/SSI and whatnot. IE has been notories for not including the full support for these features or will modify the language for there own tastes thusly breaking the code's standard.

So hopefully this will answer your questions about browsers.

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Pick whichever one you like better.

In reply to: RE: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? WTF!!!!

''Mozilla/Firefox/Netscape have been more compatable with the Language behind the browsers. HTML/CSS/SSI and whatnot. IE has been notories for not including the full support for these features''

Firstly, both browsers do not have full support for these. especially CSS. It depends on which features you believe are more important.

Personally I dont use Firefox, I use Avant Browser which is an add-on for IE that gives it all of the browsing features that Firefox has. The only thing I use Firefox for is their web development tools so I can see my css changes as I make them etc (I have yet to find where they hid these features in the newest version, it was all easily accessible on 1.1)...

If someone like the way IE dislays things then they should use Avant. If they like the way Firefox displays things, then they should use Firefox. Neither is better or worse than the other.

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i hate how IE stopped being my default

In reply to: RE: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? WTF!!!!

I liked IE (and i accept the features that FF etc have might be good - esp the zoom I would like that)but when i got BT Yahoo broadband it came with this bespoke yahoo browser that i think is rubbish. It has no "history" feature, other than in current online experience (a miserable down arrow on the backspace)and the favs is quite frankly a pain to configure (no easy create or add to groupings without going into the thing to sort it all as a separate task) and WORST of all it doesnt accept the functions on my intellimouse optical (as far as I see) - i liked doing back and forward on the extra buttons taht had. Maybe I havent researched enough I acceopt, but all these things worked out of the box on IE.

Of course I can use Xp but then that limits my access to the zippiteedoooda functions i can access as a bt yahoo customer (like radio etc). Why could they not just ensure that the newer browser add to the existing functions without removing some first.

Rant over - viva IE


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Bugs, updates, bugs, bugs...

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I'm not a geek nor I'm an expert on this subject, but, I can only tell you that I personally switched because I was fed up with constant bugs, threats of hacking and errors in my computer using IE. Since I changed to FF (about a year ago) I have not had a single instance of those problems. The only drawback: in some sites I can't play Windows Media Video (such as MSN) because it wants me to forcefully use IE (I guess there is some combination there between IE and WMV that is needed to them). I just don't play those videos and keep going.

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IE bashing or not

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I think it is better to say if you like IE then stay with it. If you like geting update and patches to fix this hole or that then ok too. I have run IE and every time I get off it I run my adaware programs. Almost every time I get some junk put on my PC. Now since I switched to Opera 8.00 that has stopped altogether. I even tried going on known website that will try to hit you with an adaware or 2. I run my adware programs and nothing. I think MS should remove the IE altogether and let the user pick which browser her or she want to use.
The same with the M player. Here in the EU they are stopping MS from adding it in to their windows systems.
When all that will happen is the big question. I think freedom of choice is what is important here not puting down one browers over another.

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In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I have been in computerdom since my first Commodore 64 in 1986. Frankly, all these other browsers and OS'es are knock offs of that system, to include Apple and MS. That having been said, the best on the market today is the Microsoft XP and that is proved by the amount of all the wanna-bees buzzing around the main hive of MS. For a browser, I use two that I have trouble choosing between. I use the popular Firefox and I use Avant. I lean towards Avant because it is built on the IE code and I'm comfortable with it. Now, the answer to your questions follow:
1. It is MS bashing to an extent but many people are confused by the plethora of articles that come out on the web about the various virii and other microbes (Trojans, etc.)on C-net and other news themed sites.
2. Nothing is wrong with IE that won't be fixed in IE 7 due out next year. Right now, its a little out dated and cumbersome, but, with all the fixes, still serviceable.
3. You are not alone in not caring about security. But, once again, many news articles preach security and the average person doesn't realize these "the sky is falling" type of articles are aimed more at businesses.
4. Speed? Frankly, I think Avant is faster than the others and, remember, it is built on IE's base.
5. In the end, the choice of browsers is entirely the users perogative. I have no idea why so many people are dissatisfied with IE or MS. I just kind of refer to my first analogy about the wanna-bees.

Hope this wasn't so long you quit reading about the middle, but I figured someone should try to answer your original questions. Until we meet on the boards again, good 'puting and surfing, no matter what you do it with. Bill

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RE: Avant

In reply to: Avant

> 2. Nothing is wrong with IE that won't be fixed in IE 7 > due out next year. Right now, its a little out dated
> and cumbersome, but, with all the fixes, still
> serviceable.

Here is a flaw in your logic. As it stands, Microsoft *WILL NOT* be relaseing IE7 for Windows 2000 and below. I know of several networks of several hundred computers each who have different MS OS's in different stages of being updated (These SysAdmins beleieve it is the responcability of each workstation user to keep there workstation up to date and I agree with that). I have in the paste consulted with these people about some techynical issues and I have learned a few things in the process. *ALL* of there computers have FireFox as the default web browser ... why you ask ... it's very simple ... since these people made the switch to FireFox the Support calls to the NOC have droped to 1/10th of what they used to be ... why you ask again ... because Firefox successfully blocks 99% of the spyware issues the way MS should ... but doesn't.

So now back to my origional topic. IE7 is due out soon and is supposed to fix all of these problems. Convince me why I should tell my buddies to spend hundreds of thousnads to upgrade nearly 1,000 workstations to WinXP so these users can use IE7 .... I don't see that as a cost effective solution.

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RE: Avant

In reply to: RE: Avant

Your point is well taken!! Why, indeed?

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For speed, try K-Meleon

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I only us the IE for Windows updates now. Ever since I tried K-Meleon about a year ago, I just can't find anything I like as well. It loads faster than IE and perhaps has less security problems. I say, perhaps, because I have had not problems there with either K-Meleon or IE. I dropped IE because I could not save a picture file as a jpg. IE would always save it as jpeg and then not report it as being in sub-directory where I put it. You can tell how long I have been using personal computer because I said sub-directory. Folders belong in file cabinets.

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context menus

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I used Netscape for many years, and now I am using Firefox as well. I have IE installed, but only use it when absolutely necessary. I keep a personal website and blog, and spend a lot of time surfing for information. Besides the security issue, which is very serious indeed especially for casual users who never can figure out how to get rid of their adware once they get them, I do like the tabbed browsing and the better context menus in the Mozilla browsers. I like to right-click on things, and IE doesn't let me copy image location or open frame in new window/tab. It's always good to have an alternative, because though rare, there are still times when a page is bugged in IE and not in FF.

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Do your part to be safe.

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

I may be new to all this, but i thought security was up to the user. Keep your anti virus,adware and firewall programs up to date.

I don't believe any browser is safer than the next. Sure Firefox was safer when it came out, but not anymore.Hackers are having a field day with it now.

I myself use IE and the new netscape browser, and i like them both. I have only been using pc's for only 5 years and have got 2 viruses in all that time.

I really do believe sercurity is up to the user here. Sure it would help if the browser that you use is secure, but you have to do your part also.

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I agree

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

It's much ado about nothing - hardly significant with all the other issues today. Thanks for the bold stance.

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There are differences

In reply to: Firefox, Netscape, IE?? ***!!!!

To my mind there are two major reasons that you should care as a web designer.

FF does not use ActiveX. Of all the security differences between IE and gecko (the engine in Firefox and netscape) that is the largest. ActiveX opens up your computer to another level of security problems.

The second is standards. FF does a much better job of adhereing to all the various standards like HTML, CSS, etc. Some FF advocates get very religious about it but you can get by with IE for most of your web pages as being good enough. That is if you stay away from MS only extensions to the web pages. If you don't use a MS product like frontpage to build you workproducts, you should be OK.

IMHO, there is no reason to build to the IE market. Most of what you want to do can be done with no apparent difference in any modern browser.

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There are.........

In reply to: There are differences

Excellent points! I use FF and see no reason to change.

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