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General discussion

Faith and Works

Apr 11, 2005 12:03PM PDT

The textual differences between faith alone and works, as the Apostle Paul describes them in scripture, are distinguished expressly by their opposable disposition alone. Their juxtaposition in the inspired text serve only to demonstrate the inherent conflict of principal between the doctrine of faith for salvation and works that are the Christian endeavor, that one may prove to others and affirm for themselves what they profess to be true.Therefore works are the result of faith.

This is important to understand for religions such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and others who adhere to a works-based salvation. Work-based religions tend to try to resolve the apparent contradiction of faith and works by reconciling the fact that scripture say's both that salvation is by faith alone, but that faith alone is dead without works.

But the inspired writers of the Bible never meant for us to try to reconcile their differences. On the contrary, by allowing this conflict within us to provoke the self-realization of our own sinfulness, we come to Christ by faith in what He has done on the cross and in His Resurrection.

We are powerless to do good because we are inherently sinful. If there is no conflict, the human/religious paradox (the willingness to do good but not the power to carry it out) can never be resolved. Paul and many millions more have resolved the conflict through their own personal struggle. It is all based squarely on the theological premise that unregenerate, religious man is hopelessly and incurably lost in his sin apart from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Discussion is locked

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Yes, it goes together. BUT
Apr 13, 2005 1:17PM PDT

there are plenty who claim to have faith but don't back it up with good works. If I had my choice, I'd prefer one who did good works without faith than one who had faith without good works -- the first helps people, the second doesn't. And the parable of the good Samaritan tells which on Christ prefers, too.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Ummmm, you've missed Jesus' thought again Dave. Jesus
Apr 13, 2005 1:41PM PDT

was constantly telling His disciples to exercise faith.

Matt 6:28-34 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith ? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. NIV

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith , he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." NIV

John 14:11-14 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

You see it? First comes faith and salvation. Then the good deeds flow from that. Consider the thief on the cross. Jesus said the thief would join Him in paradise. The man had faith, but no opportunity for works. He was saved by his faith.

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Dave you don't seem to understand that.....
Apr 13, 2005 4:23PM PDT

If you have Faith you also have works. How to make you understand that either by itself is not Faith! Faith is what you do when you accept Christ and because of His Free gift of Salvation you do Good works. You don't get Faith from doing good works, it is just the opposite

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Good calls, Dave.
Apr 12, 2005 4:12PM PDT

BTW, there's a hidden agenda here, as signaled by the establishing post's reference to Jehovah's Witnesses. (Works and JWs were 'juxtaposed.' Golll-eee.)

Our "works," as is well known, feature (but certainly are not limited to) what we call "the preaching work." AKA 'pestering people on Saturday mornings- and during football season!' Happy

Since we do it, and few others do, the mainstream churches love to hate us for it. We claim it's "the most important work being done today," and that it's commanded by Jesus, so then we are seen as "holier-than-thou." (That may be justified in some cases; we're human too, and we like what we do. We shouldn't appear to be bragging, but sometimes we come across that way. If you catch us at it, just cite Zec 4:6. That'll bring us up short.)

One key argument against us is Santiago 2, as seen several times in this thread. That's false reasoning to us, of course.
A corollary is that 'JWs try to buy their way into heaven by selling magazines.' That one sticks around- like 'they don't believe in Jesus'- although it's demonstratably false on several grounds.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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So, at what point in a persons life
Apr 13, 2005 4:35AM PDT

is this rule true? Think of babies and start from there. Also, what about people from different parts of the world who, through cultural differences, tend to have alternate beliefs?

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To define some terms:
Apr 13, 2005 6:30AM PDT

"Good works" covers a lot of ground. Some say it includes flying planes into buildings.
Maybe it will help to look at a common definition of "bad works," that is, "sin."
Here's what we've come to after some study of the matter, beginning with a secular definition obtained from bible study:

[quote] The common Hebrew term translated ?sin? is chat

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(NT) (NT) Which 'rule,' Dragon? I don't follow your comment...
Apr 13, 2005 1:19PM PDT
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well....
Apr 13, 2005 8:59AM PDT

Dear Dave,
I never said that works were not needed. If one has faith one usually has good works to follow. I'm simply making the point that works do not save you.

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Hi, James.
Apr 13, 2005 1:23PM PDT

>>simply making the point that works do not save you.<<
In modern Catholic theology, you don't have to have "the faith" to be saved. You have to be good according to your own value system, as long as you truly believe it to be correct. Of course, I don't know what that says about a "good" member of the Aryan Nation, frinstance...

BTW, welcome to Speakeasy -- I should have said that in my earlier post!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I think I'd rather rely
Apr 14, 2005 4:25AM PDT

On God's value system then my own. If the Catholics think you just have to be true to yourself, why bother having the Pope and all the rules?

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods