General discussion

Excellent show about Haditha, Iraq.

Feb 19, 2008 11:22AM PST

I recommend watching tonight's Frontline episode about the Haditha incident that dominated the news and several posts on SE.

The program can be streamed to your computer from this link.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/

look for... Rules of Engagement
The inside story of what happened in Haditha, Iraq, where 24 Iraqis were killed by U.S. forces. Many in the media branded it "Iraq's My Lai."


The show pointed out mistakes made by the press and press coverage, failures on the marine corps part to adequately investigate the action, and indicates that John Murtha did no favors for anyone by using inaccurate descriptions of the incident to promote himself and his agenda. The show also revealed details about the marines involved, including the fact that the one marine immediately in charge of the patrol during the incident had never been under fire before, and also if the incident had been accurately reported up the chain of command then much of the confusion over this action could have been prevented.

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Comments
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and just think werent convicted
Feb 19, 2008 12:37PM PST

much the shame on some se members who did convict them

and murtha just another glory hound

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One thing I did learn from watching the video
Feb 19, 2008 12:47PM PST

The Lieutenant tells the Sergeant to "clear the house" he doesn't tell him "How to clear the house"

As Heard in "The Shootings Earlier in the Day Segment" video

So there is "Democracy" in the military.

Perhaps there is a no "Democracy" when the Sergeant is told "to engage a bunker"

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i take it
Feb 19, 2008 9:43PM PST

that you never served in a war zone jp?

because if your sgt. says clear the house in a war zone most troops wouldn't need to ask how.

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you never served in a war zone jp
Feb 19, 2008 9:56PM PST

Some days I feel like I'm in one here.

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so thats why you dont understand
Feb 19, 2008 10:03PM PST

you think this is a war zone .
ok here only words there bullets one kills you there here you just get threads locked

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you just get threads locked
Feb 19, 2008 10:10PM PST

There was a guy here before....HE was good.

You probably read some of his posts (the few that didn't get deleted) when you were reading SE posts (before you became a member)

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isn't that what most do
Feb 19, 2008 10:28PM PST

read SE posts for years before becoming a member?

I believe it is required at TOS university. another well read site by newer members.

had I known that; I would have been more prepared when I arrived feb 2006. my first posts are how I 'met' you and JR and others that encouraged me.

I was certainly outnumbered by so many that are here, back and apparently gone.

the best of all is the paranoid belief that I was here before that day. that was learned by observing not only accusers here but also at the other place which I have never looked back at. I know I do not have to: I am pavlov to the doggies. it is my invisible circus. how many hoops today, lads and lassies.

chortle

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Old habits are hard to break
Feb 19, 2008 10:43PM PST

One other forum I belong to is a "technical forum" and I go there for information purposes.

I read thousands of posts on how to do certain things before I joined (as I wanted to ask questions or comment on something I read).

If I did find the information I needed without asking a question, I would not have joined. (don't like to leave a trail)

Most of the time I am on the net, I am in lurk mode.

99% lurk 1% post

It's what I do.

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these are things one learns
Feb 19, 2008 11:03PM PST

in the military. only one who was too cowardly to serve would accuse another without investigation.

men or women who have served know the code of conduct and the obligation of honor.

from my personal experience (ww2 vets: family, korea: family & friends, vietnam: friends) the ones that were in the horrendous heat of a battle and saw their buddies and enemies die or bleed never speak of it unless drunk, ordered, writing, teaching or with their comrades. it is not the glory hole to true warriors.

it is regret and respect for the call they answered.

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and some here
Feb 19, 2008 11:28PM PST

havent a clue just follow the sheep

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havent a clue just follow the sheep
Feb 19, 2008 11:54PM PST

There ya' go?

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I have a wool hat and
Feb 20, 2008 12:03AM PST

scarf and sweater (it is not an outfit but skillfully worn) that I wear when I deploy my shepherd staff. no kilts in my closet.

is that where he was leading his flock?

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I guess noncoms are expected to think more than
Feb 19, 2008 11:50PM PST

their civilian counterparts. Wasn't it you who said civilians aren't allowed to think for themselves?

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I agree with your sentiment.
Feb 19, 2008 1:15PM PST

I must confess that I put too much trust in Murtha's account at that time.

I am a bit amazed however, by your knowledge of what some SE members were doing back then... considering you have only been a member here since July 10, 2007. You must have spent a great deal of time reading through all the old posts to possess the knowledge needed to make your observations.

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search is a wonderfull thing
Feb 19, 2008 9:41PM PST

and thats the bottom line

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Search is a wonderful thing jandj
Feb 20, 2008 1:01AM PST

Good for you in taking the interest and making the effort.

Happy

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Thursday, February 14, 2008
Feb 19, 2008 1:23PM PST

Thursday, February 14, 2008

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/02/us-marines-order-haditha-defendant-to.php

The US Marine Corps has ordered Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum [advocacy profile] to testify against Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich [advocacy website] about the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians at Haditha [USMC timeline; JURIST news archive] in November 2005, according to Wednesday media reports. Both men currently face court-martial for their alleged roles in the incident......

In January, 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson [defense website] was arraigned on charges [JURIST reports] of making false official statements and obstruction of justice in connection to the killings at Haditha. Eight marines were initially charged in connection to the Haditha incident, though charges have since been dropped against four. Wuterich was initially charged with unpremeditated murder, but the investigating officer in Wuterich's case recommended [JURIST report] last year that the more serious charge be dropped. An official report on the Haditha incident by US Army Major General Eldon Bargewell found "serious misconduct" [JURIST report] on all levels of the US Marine Corps chain of command. The North County Times has more.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/02/14//news/top_stories/1_03_542_13_08.txt

Wuterich, 27, and Tatum, 26, face separate court-martials on charges arising out of the deaths. Tatum is charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault and is scheduled to go on trial March 28.

Wuterich is charged with nine counts of voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and obstruction of justice.

Two Marine officers who were at Haditha also face trial at Camp Pendleton later this year on charges related to failing to order a full-scale investigation into the civilian deaths.

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PSSST (attention grabbing sound)
Feb 19, 2008 10:06PM PST

Thursday, February 14, 2008
by WOODS-HICK - 2/19/08 9:23 PM
In reply to: and just think werent convicted by jimandjerry

jimandjerry what you say is true and false and not yet true or false as of now...w-h


Thursday, February 14, 2008

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/02/us-marines-order-haditha-defendant-to.php

The US Marine Corps has ordered Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum [advocacy profile] to testify against Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich [advocacy website] about the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians at Haditha [USMC timeline; JURIST news archive] in November 2005, according to Wednesday media reports. Both men currently face court-martial for their alleged roles in the incident......

In January, 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson [defense website] was arraigned on charges [JURIST reports] of making false official statements and obstruction of justice in connection to the killings at Haditha. Eight marines were initially charged in connection to the Haditha incident, though charges have since been dropped against four. Wuterich was initially charged with unpremeditated murder, but the investigating officer in Wuterich's case recommended [JURIST report] last year that the more serious charge be dropped. An official report on the Haditha incident by US Army Major General Eldon Bargewell found "serious misconduct" [JURIST report] on all levels of the US Marine Corps chain of command. The North County Times has more.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/02/14//news/top_stories/1_03_542_13_08.txt

Wuterich, 27, and Tatum, 26, face separate court-martials on charges arising out of the deaths. Tatum is charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault and is scheduled to go on trial March 28.

Wuterich is charged with nine counts of voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and obstruction of justice.

Two Marine officers who were at Haditha also face trial at Camp Pendleton later this year on charges related to failing to order a full-scale investigation into the civilian deaths.

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6130_102-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=284679&messageID=2709086#2709086


"search is a wonderfull thing"

"ive stated my time over there
by ******** - */**/** 10:15 AM
In reply to: *****-****


i did get an early out the 2nd tour
"

and thats the bottom line"

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RE: if the incident had been accurately reported
Feb 19, 2008 1:12PM PST

if the incident had been accurately reported up the chain

CYA?

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Honestly? I think that was part of it, but also...
Feb 19, 2008 1:31PM PST

... I believe that the failure of the higher ups to pick up on clues that something needed closer examination was because of the unanticipated strength of the insurgency to that date. The lack of a winning military strategy on the ground, compounded by the driving political agenda of Ashcroft's vision of how the war should be fought (eg. ignore the Powell Doctrine in favor of high tech making up for man power) probably lead to a complacency. A complacency that caused the upper ranks to shrug and accept 24 civilian deaths as the cost of doing business. Never a good attitude to have in a "battle for the hearts and minds" of the local population but one that you would expect from soldiers, after living in a meat grinder for weeks and months and years.

My 2 cents.

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