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General discussion

Ex-pilot says Bush put in for Vietnam

Feb 15, 2004 11:13PM PST

I don't know how much it has been mentioned in the "mainstream", but one thing Bush's military records reveal is that he was no dufus tag-along in the military. He was a top-notch pilot (can't be a dummy and be one) and showed leadership even back then in his "frat boy" youth.

But still, on Meet the Press, Charlie Rangel couldn't even bring himself to call him President, and continued this nonsense that Bush's service was somehow insufficient to qualify him to be Commander in Chief. Note to Rangel: He didn't land on that carrier in camo!

I had heard before that he volunteered for Vietnam while in the Guard, but hadn't seen it in print. Well, now, here it is:


Ex-pilot says Bush put in for Vietnam


A former senior Virginia Air National Guard commander, who served with George W. Bush in the Texas Air Guard, says Bush volunteered for Vietnam combat service but was turned down because he did not have the required flight experience.

William J. Campenni, a retired Air Guard colonel, also said absences such as Bush's from his unit were common in the Air Guard during the period of Bush's service and still are....

...According to Campenni, Bush inquired about participating in a volunteer program called Palace Alert that used Air National Guard pilots flying in the F-102 Delta Dagger interceptor jet in Vietnam.

The Air Guard advised Bush he did not have the desired 500 hours of flight time as a pilot to qualify for Palace Alert duty, and, in any event, the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.


Evie Happy

Discussion is locked

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OK then Dave............
Feb 16, 2004 12:35PM PST

Tell us Kerry didn't have 'pull' to only
serve 4 months in VN when the tour was 13
months, and he didn't have 'pull' to get
of the navy early.

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PS: BTW Dave
Feb 16, 2004 12:38PM PST

What has any of this about their service days
those many years ago have to do with their
qualifications and ability to be the President
of the United States today ?

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Worthwhile Sacrifices???
Feb 16, 2004 3:23PM PST
What has any of this about their service days those many years ago have to do with their qualifications and ability to be the President of the United States today? - Del McMullen

It's disingenuous for GW to claim that the loss of over 540+ of our troops and the mounting number of serious and debilitating injuries are worthwhile sacrifices in an unnecessary war when GW wasn't willing to make that sacrifice himself when he had the opportunity to do so in Vietnam...
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and it is typical of you to denigrate the ...
Feb 17, 2004 12:05AM PST

actions and sacrifices of the military.

What did you do when you had the opportunity to sacrifice yourself when you became old enough?

You have absolutely NO ROOM to talk or make insinuations about your betters Blake.

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Educated Choices In November...
Feb 17, 2004 5:33PM PST
it is typical of you to denigrate the actions and sacrifices of the military. - Edward O'Daniel

It is interesting that you continue to claim that criticism of GW and his misguided, deathly, and costly adventures is even remotely equivalent to denigrating the military. Since it appears that GW is your god, it doesn't surprise me that you would resort to this deceptive approach...

GW also used this deception in his interview with Tim Russert. While it is GW's service record that is in question, GW tried to claim that people are denigrating the Guard by questioning his background. I guess when you have no defense, you attempt to change the discussion any way you can, which is what both you and GW and many of his apologists regularly resort to...

You have absolutely NO ROOM to talk or make insinuations about your betters Blake. - Edward O'Daniel

Are you claiming to be better than anyone Ed? I bet you put your pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. I bet you have red blood coursing through your veins. I bet you make mistakes and have to sleep every night in order to function. Do you really think that you are better than anyone Ed? Do you really think that GW, your god, is beyond question???

I don't have the power or authority to send our troops to their deaths. I don't have the power or authority to force our troops to risk permanent and debilitating injury. So my record has no bearing on this discussion...

Since it is clear that GW refused to make any sacrifices for his country when he had the opportunity, it is disingenuous for him to claim that sacrifices for his misguided and bloody adventures are worthwhile especially since it is clear that most, if not all, of his claims were baseless. Many lives have been ruined forever both in Iraq and here in the States because of GW's misguided and bloody adventures. Many families must live without a parent, brother, sister, or spouse because of GW's misguided and bloody adventures. Yet GW has chosen not to attend even a single funeral for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for his misguided and bloody adventures...

Americans have a right to question the background of their leaders and they have a right to be aware of the lies and deceptions of those leaders as well. The media now seems to be waking up and hopefully GW will be forced to answer the really difficult questions that he has side-stepped throughout his political career, so that people can make educated choices in November when choosing the next US President...
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My statements stand. You keep dinigrating the actions/services of those who...
Feb 18, 2004 1:41AM PST

are serving.

While you are fully aware that as I stated it, your betters are Bush and the military serving in the combat theaters but I am glad you were keen enough to realize the obvious and include me. Your option, your choice, your decision and for once you are correct.

Bush's Service Record is NOT in question. The record speaks for itself. The DNC and its supporters credibility are in question with their need to fabricate.

Kerry's record and self serving are getting ready to bite him in the **** as more and more vets learn about the real Kerry and distance themselves from him and his willingness to forget the MIAs and give up sovereignty.

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My, my! Bill Clinton certainly didn't mind troops in harms way, and we know about his sacrifice
Feb 17, 2004 2:32AM PST

in Oxford. The story changes depending on the person's politics doesn't it?

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Reality Check...
Feb 17, 2004 7:24PM PST
Bill Clinton certainly didn't mind troops in harms way, and we know about his sacrifice - Kiddpeat

How many of our troops were sacrificed during Clinton's tenure as our President? GW sacrificed more lives in one month in his unnecessary war than Clinton was responsible for in 8 years. GW has also far exceeded the number of lives that his father sacrificed during his tenure. In fact, GW has probably sacrificed more of our troops than all the Presidents combined since Carter, in less than a year of his unnecessary war...
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If we consider the number of ground troops in combat,
Feb 17, 2004 10:48PM PST

Clinton had a far worse record. He had refused to properly equip the troops or put in the number needed to do the job.

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And let's look at the legacy of Clinton's use of the military
Feb 18, 2004 12:13AM PST

Balkans -- troops still there after all these years. This operation handed over to the UN in the name of idyllic internationalism is not going so swimmingly -- we just don't hear about it Sad See, for example, The Forgotten War (written by a European)

...Thus, Kosovo is to this day trumpeted as a victory for the concept of humanitarian warfare. Everyone is happy, and the mission was accomplished; been there, done that, time to move on to the next target....

... Yet Kosovo is anything but the happy and prosperous place that it was supposed to be. Nor has peace been brought to region. Crime, terror, ethnic cleansing, and smuggling is rampant -- this time under the aegis of the UN and not Belgrade.

Four years after it was "liberated" by a NATO bombing campaign, Kosovo has deteriorated into a hotbed of organized crime, anti-ethnic violence, and even al-Qaeda sympathizers. Though nominally still under UN control, this southern province of Serbia is today dominated by a triumvirate of Albanian paramilitaries, mafia gangs, and terrorists. They control a host of smuggling operations and are implementing what many observers call their own brutal ethnic cleansing of minority groups, namely Serbs, Roma and Jews. This, despite an 18,000-strong NATO-led peacekeeping force and an international police force of more than 4,000.

Typically, the response by the international community to this is to look the other way, for it's far easier to do this than explain why NATO should go against the ones they "liberated" just a few years ago. Furthermore, it would distract the west from other "nation-building" projects that are currently underway around the world....


Somalia -- nothing more need be said on that issue

Haiti -- not looking so good right now: Fear of coup and civil war as uprising spreads


Now why should the US have to do something here? Where's the UN Peace keepers? Where are the French??

Bush may not make all the right choices, and EVERYONE is entitled to make mistakes. Our continued involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq are evidence of learning from what went wrong in previous nation building escapades. The UN is an inept and useless organization that is best marginalized.

Evie Happy

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Lose her children? To whom? Their father? Anything bad about that?
Feb 16, 2004 1:33PM PST

Happens to men all the time too. Equality, it cuts both ways, all things being equal, which often it isn't when it comes to men getting the children. If the father was there for the children, then while she was away, he SHOULD have the custody of them.

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Re:Lose her children? Anything bad about that? Your compassion is underwhelming.
Feb 17, 2004 9:50PM PST

Hi, James.

Presumably there was a reason that custody was awarded to the mother as being in the childrens' best interest. The children were being cared for by her parents, AIR -- it's not like they were out on the street.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Why presume?
Feb 18, 2004 12:21AM PST

You don't know too many divorced couples with kids do you Dave. Most of the courts assign custody to the mother almost as a matter of default unless there are compelling reasons to determine her to be unfit. Do you have a link to the story so I can refresh my memory on the circumstances? From what I'm reading here it seems her unit got called to active duty and she didn't want to go? And may I assume from James' post that the child could have gone to live with its father? Sorry Dave, but when one signs on with the Guard with all the perks come the responsibilities. While it might not seem compassionate to you not being excused from your duty should only occur under the most extenuating of circumstances. I'm reminded of those active military members who didn't want to go to Iraq back in the Gulf War -- who thought of the military as a job but somehow thought they wouldn't actually ever have to go to war Sad Like I said, I'ld like more details, but this case bears nothing on Bush's service. I also think the military ought to rethink having both parents in the military.

Evie Happy

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As has been EXPLAINED to you several times...
Feb 16, 2004 10:42PM PST

there is a tremendous difference in personnel accountability and options AFTER a Guard/Reserve unit has been activated.

Once activated they are ADT/D and subject to ALL the active services rules and regulations regarding movement. She had already been deployed and both she and her husband were required by law and military regulation to have both a primary dependant care plan and an up-to-date alternate plan.

The military is a different world than any you know Dave and operates under different rules.

Don't believe me, ask Angeline.

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Re:Ex-pilot says Bush put in for Vietnam
Feb 16, 2004 10:32AM PST

Anybody who kept up with the news might recall the questionable details about his National Guard service were on the record prior to his race for Governor, and, of course, for President

So, it is not "new news:"

But as to his volunteering for Vietmam, he was accepted for the Guard on the day he appled, although there was a waiting list of a year and a half. He was a few days from losing his student draft deferrment.

I don't fault him for this. But, as this has been known for years, I find it strange that somebody would come forward after thirty years to say he volunteered for 'Nam.

IMO, it's stuff like that which can make a non-issue and issue.

They ought to let the record stand and keep quiet.

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Why not add to the record?
Feb 16, 2004 11:36AM PST

The guy lives in Virginia, and may not have been aware of the issue until the Dems blew it up this time around. That was certainly true for me.

If he's got a relevant experience, why not add it to the record? The detractions, however shaky they are, are certainly being added.

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Re:Why not add to the record?
Feb 16, 2004 12:03PM PST

It's a bit of the damn if you do and damn if you don't thing.

Evidence or information that appears too conveniently to counter something appears suspect.

But if you don't counter the allegation may grow too.

No really win situation.

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Re:Re:Ex-pilot says Bush put in for Vietnam
Feb 16, 2004 9:17PM PST

Hi Angeline,

As I stated in my original post, I had heard this story about him volunteering before, so it is not "new news" either other than this is the first time I've seen it in print. Also, TTBOMK, records and witnesses actually refute that he was shown any favoritism.

And Dave, the guy who doesn't remember him is Turnipseed (yeah, that's his name!) and he has now come out and said that he is suffering the early stages of Alzheimers. He has immense respect for Calhoun -- the person who remembers Bush -- and therefore has said if Calhoun says it's so, nobody should interpret his memory as contradicting it. IOW, it's likely his poor memory and Calhoun is truthful.

I take it that Bush's exemplary record as a pilot is not getting much play. That's too bad, because contrary to those who would portray him as a dolt, it would appear he was a bit of a Top Gun pilot who demonstrated both exceptional leadership and team player abilities even during his "wild" youth. Those qualities have served him well as President and Commander in Chief, both jobs he has executed with exceptional ability IMO.

Evie Happy